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	Subtopic	Started By	Posts
	Archive through Jun 25, 2003 Last Post: Jun 27, 2003, 08:40 am		20
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	Archive through Jul 15, 2003 Last Post: Jul 17, 2003, 06:57 am		20
	Archive through Sep 10, 2003 Last Post: Sep 16, 2003, 06:54 am		20
	Archive through Nov 29, 2003 Last Post: Dec 04, 2003, 02:09 pm		20

Posted By: Bmat Nov 29, 2003 - 11:46 am

The ordering was strange, DK. It should be fixed now.

Posted By: Dark Knight Nov 29, 2003 - 11:53 am

Thanks Bmat.....

Posted By: Nomad Dec 01, 2003 - 09:36 am

I think I will have to re-read book 5. In fact...I need to finidh book 4 again. I started it and put it down like a year ago. lol

Posted By: GoddessDictator Dec 04, 2003 - 12:43 pm

so I'm new here. I've looked all over the net and I can't find anyone who's brought up my issues with Book 5.
First:
Sirius clearly states when talking to Harry while they are standing in front of the "family tree" tapestry, that he stayed with James' parents after leaving home. And that James parents basically took him in. This is the first time in all the books that james' parents have been mentioned, and Harry DOESNT ASK WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?! Wouldn't you? This makes absolutely no sense whatesoever, and has been making me crazy ever since i read book 5.

My other issue is that Sirius gives Harry the mirror at christmas and says "use this if you need to get in touch with me" and when Harry needs to get in touch with him, he convienently forgets about that package. I understand that this was intended to make the whole Sirius dying thing more tragic, as then you go "oh harry didn't even HAVE to use the fire, and then these others things wouldn't have happened if only he'd remembered...." but i just find it totally unbelievable that harry wouldn't remember sirius saying that.

ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CONSIDER, when harry uses the fire the FIRST time to contact lupin and sirius to ask them about the memory he saw of Snape's in the pensieve, sirius DOESNT SAY "hey, what about the present i gave you. remember i said you could use it if you needed to get ahold of me." This event happens AFTER Christmas, and so SIrius ought to be mad as hell that harry used the fires which are being watched and are dangerous, and OUGHT to mention the mirror.

Anyway. I loved the book, but these couple of things make no sense and are total deus ex machinas... can't stand that. Am looking for others opinions

Posted By: Sindatur Dec 04, 2003 - 02:09 pm

Hi GoddessDictator, Welcome to the site.

JKR is obviously hiding more family connections, and how all of Harry's Ancestors are dead, other than his Aunt Petunia. My explanation to myself as to how she can justify writing Harry so stupid as to not ask questions like that, is that he spent so many years being beaten down by the Dursley's, so it's no longer in his nature to ask questions like that, it's not instinctual for him, like it might be for me or you.

The mirror, well, it's a pretty sorry excuse, but, Harry programmed himself immediately, that he would not contact Sirius with the mirror, and put him at risk. Apparently that self programming took hold so well, he completely forgot it when he should have used it because, as you mentioned, it was less dangerous than the fire. You're right, it was very difficult to read, and to think that everything may have turned out different, if only...

It's difficult to believe that JKR only did that to HArry to cause him more grief and guilt, so, perhaps, there's some possibility that the theories that Sirius may communicate from beyond the veil through the mirror in a future book may come to pass. Either that, or Harry will collect the other mirror from Grimauld Place and make important use of them in future books. I agree that it doesn't make sense that Sirius didn't mention it, I'll be paying more attention to those pages when I get to them again (I'm on my second trip through the book) and see if I can make sense of it then.

JKR also seemed to beat it into our head throughout the book that "There are other ways of communicating" than the fire.

Posted By: GoddessDictator Dec 05, 2003 - 03:35 pm

Sindatur,

Thanks for your response! I feel a lot calmer about it now that I know I'm not the only one who saw it. I tried posting on another board, and rather than finding people to participate in constructive criticism, I got responses like "Well, YOU do better then, if you think you can" Which is really childish and unhelpful.

I love JKR, and she is a very talented writer. I'm not actually irritated with her. I'm a writer, and believe me, you reach a point where you can't see the forest for the trees. You wouldn't see a plot hole if it was painted on your face after looking at the manuscript for the 40th time. But I AM irritated with her editors.

Stuff like this is what editors are FOR. If I were JKR I'd be throwing a bit of a fit.

Hey, I found one more thing that's bugging me, that I just found last night. I'm rereading Goblet of Fire for the first time since I read Order of the Phoenix. And at the end of GOF, Harry, Hermione, and Ron are waiting for "the horseless carriages." Harry has already seen Cedric die... so why doesn't he see the thestrals at this point? This is more forgiveable by far than the previous offenses though. Harry was very distracted and probably not paying attention, and it would have just been distracting at that point in the book.

Anyway. Since I pointed out a lot of things I didn't like about Order of the Phoenix, I'll throw in a few things I DID like.

Loved Dumbledore kicking @$$ when Fudge tries to arrest him. Loved Fred and George. Loved getting to see the department of mysteries and learn more about Sirius. I also really enjoyed how well she portrays the tendency adults have to do what they think is best for the children in their life, when it may not be the best thing at all...i.e. Dumbledore not talking to Harry and not communicating with him, and not explaining why. But 15 is around the time when communication b/w parent and child does tend to break down, so I felt it was very appropriate.

Anyway. thanks...

Posted By: GoddessDictator Dec 05, 2003 - 03:40 pm

HEY! I just had a thought. Voldemort was aware of his connection with Harry at the point where Harry decided to use the fire, and forgot about the mirror, resulting in his going to the ministry of magic, etc...

Voldemort was able to put the fake vision into Harry's head, perhaps he was also able to make sure he only used the fire to try to contact Sirius, by influencing him to forget the mirror, or any other options. I mean if Hermione hadn't made him, he wouldn't have even checked to make sure SIrius wasn't at Grimauld place using the fire, he would have just high tailed it to the Ministry. I'm pretty doubtful about this, but it seems like the most reasonable solution i've come up with... That Voldemort influenced Harry to want to just come straight there, and question nothing....

what do you all think?

Posted By: Dark Knight Dec 05, 2003 - 04:09 pm

Harry only found out it was a mirror after Sirius was dead....so before that Harry could have thought it was something else...

Harry had put the package in the bottom of his trunk, and clearly forgot about it.....

Mr Weasley was real attacked, so that point to the vision being real....

Oh and Bmat there's a glitch with the achieve again.....

Posted By: Bmat Dec 06, 2003 - 04:38 am

I wonder about the idea of Harry's being influenced to forget the mirror. It was such an obvious thing for him to remember, that maybe the forgetting was influenced. Good suggestion, GoddessDictator!

Thanks, DK. It seems as though since Books and Book Reviews is sorted alphabetically that the archives are handled the same way.

Posted By: GoddessDictator Dec 08, 2003 - 11:49 am

Dark Knight,

My issue with Harry forgetting the mirror is that he talked to Sirius through the fire in Umbridge's office once AFTER CHRISTMAS, and Sirius didn't say anything to him like "I told you to use my present if you needed to get ahold of me. Why are you using the fires, that's dangerous" And I just didn't buy that. I can see Harry forgetting about the mirror, but not Sirius seeing Harry using the fires, which are being watched, and not reminding him about the present.

Posted By: Dark Knight Dec 09, 2003 - 01:15 pm

Filch does come into the room, ending the conversation, if the conversation had not be interupted, maybe Sirius would have mentioned it?

Posted By: GoddessDictator Dec 10, 2003 - 10:50 am

I have pondered this. I've also pondered that maybe Sirius wanted to say something, but couldn't cause lupin was there... like maybe the mirrors were a secret. But I find both of these unsatisfactory. I think Sirius would have said the fires were unsafe and asked him what was up immediately, and not after chatting for a few minutes about James. So, yes, Filch did interrupt, but no, I don't think that covers it.

with the second option, all that would be needed to support it would be a mention of a look on Sirius' face that indicated he wanted to say something but couldn't. I can't find anything like that, but I don't have my book 5 right now, so I can't be sure. Anyone got anything on this?

Alas, I think it's just a plot hole. Fire the editors!

Posted By: Dark Knight Dec 12, 2003 - 02:09 pm

I think you right GD there is nothing to indicate that Sirius wanted to say something.

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Quote:

Alas, I think it's just a plot hole. Fire the editors!

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Posted By: MerleZ Mar 29, 2004 - 08:56 am

I noticed this reading Order of the Phoenix for a second time. When Umbridge is inspecting Snape's class, he affirms that he's been at Hogwart's for 14 years, and had originally applied for Dark Arts. OK, that means he came to Hogwarts right after Voldemort's fall. Dumbledore trusted him enough to give him a job, but not enough to put him in Dark Arts. Hmmmm. Any thoughts?

Posted By: Sindatur Mar 29, 2004 - 10:54 am

Interviews with JKR hint that, it would be a temptation to Snape. Don't know if that means dabbling in the Dark Arts would be a temptation to return to his old Death Eater ways, or another interpretation, though.

My gut instinct, is that Dumbledore knew how important DADA would be to Harry when he came to school, and understood that Snape wouldn't be able to get past his hatred of James. It's far less risky (So far as we've seen so far) for Harry to get a lesser education in Potions, than in DADA. Had Snape been the DADA teacher all this time, Harry probably would not have advanced as much in the subject.

JKR does hint that Snape will eventually get the job, so I would say when Harry finishes school (If Snape survives the series) the Prologue will indicate Snape finally got the job.

Of course this all could just be, Snape adding to the rumor he has always wanted the job, merely for Unmbridge's benefit. When in fact, he has only ever been interested in Potions?

Posted By: Bmat Mar 29, 2004 - 11:00 am

I conjectured that Dumbledore figured that Snape might be too tempted because of the personality characteristic, or flaw, that drew him to Voldemort to begin with. But I like Sindatur's theory better: that Snape would likely not be able to get past his problems with James to give Harry the essential skills in DADA that he needed.

Posted By: Iznardi Mar 29, 2004 - 11:24 am

I think Snape would have been tempted to become a master of dark arts, not out of allegiance to Voldemort, but possibly as a rival; he might even have tried becoming an Auror but he would have made a poor one, he's too vindictive. He would either have become a fanatic hunting down former Death Eaters (the way he tried to hunt down Sirius) or would have turned a blind eye to student "favorites" who abused the dark arts (he is in fact pretty blind to this in Potions). Snape is too proud to ever serve Voldemort again, but his pride also clouds his judgement.

Posted By: lily May 14, 2004 - 01:27 pm

Hello, out there. I just finished OorP for the first time. I was wondering if anybody else out there feels that Harry's anger with Dumbledore was left unresolved. At the end, they have their big talk, and at first harry is furious and trashing his office, he finally settles down and listens. Dumbledore gives him lots of new info, explains why he's been acting so weird, how he much he loves him, the mistakes he's made and all that. The chapter ends with a tear on Dumbledore's beard, but we never get Harry's reaction to this. Obviously he's consumed with grief and guilt, but by the time the book ends he should have been able to digest what D. said and I wanted to know how is harry feeling about Dumbledore now?

Posted By: Sindatur May 14, 2004 - 02:41 pm

Harry may still be bitter with Dumbledore, but, I think it should end early next book, if he is still bitter.

JKR indicated in her last interview that Harry needs to get over his anger to be effective, so, I think he'll be more in check during Book 6. Not sure about his anger with Snape though, even Snape actually isn't even guilty this time.