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Posted By: ZimNova May 10, 2002 - 10:07 am

Yeah Sindatur, vary confusing because there were 2 different Telepath Wars if I understand it correctly.
One was the war between Teeps & mundanes mentioned by both Lyta and Mr. Garibaldi during the series who both said basically the same thing although at different times; "There's going to be a war someday and I don't want to be around when it happens".
That war took a big if not fatal hit when Bester used Mr. G to root out the Teep virus from William Edgars. There may have been some other movement going on against the Teeps but that angle was never played out.

The second *Telepath War* was really a *Civil War* between the Psi-Corps and the Rogue Telepaths in the remember Byron movement which was being led by Lyta Alexander and financed through a secret fund being run by Mr. G and Edgars industries back on Mars.
As I recall JMS had planned to do an episode of Crusade (Triple •••• those fools at TNT for the Nth time) which would have dealt with the fate of Lyta during an attack on the Psi-Corps HQ at Syria Planum on Mars.
That was for me one of the most highly anticipated episodes of Crusade because it was to feature both Pat and Walter reprising their roles as Lyta and Bester. I seem to remember that the Lyta scenes were to have been in the past tense as told from Bester's POV as Lyta had been killed during that attack. As to the how & why of it we will most likely never know.
The bottom line is Lyta was KIA on Mars.
I too doubt she was a *suicide bomber*. Just like any current powerful leader on the battlefield can catch a stray bullet maybe in her case it was a stray PPG blast during the fog of war?

Posted By: Sindatur May 10, 2002 - 10:26 am

Fan, thanks I hadn't heard about that being an editing error. Although I rememeber her saying she was amde into a "Doomsday" or "really big" weapon, don't recall her actually saying she was actually a bomb.

Zim thanks. I've heard contrasting things about the Teep war, sometimes it sounded like a civil war, while at other times sounded like a war between the Teeps and Mundanes. Now I know why.

Any idea what the time lines are for each of the Teep wars?

And yes, most definitely triple {Insert favorite expletive here}those decision makers at TNT. From what I've heard, the scripts that were written and not filmed were the beginning of "tipping the tables over" as JMS has said about the times in B5 when things really started smacking you upside the head.

Posted By: PsiProne May 12, 2002 - 06:58 pm

Possible spoilage,


Fan is correct that G'kar seeing Lyta in the Centauri Trilogy is a mistake, announced by JMS himself.
Now on to Lyta, the suicide bomber. I believe she was THE bomb that blew up the Psi-Corps headquarters on Mars as mentioned in the Psi Trilogy, why else would JMS have an episode where she announces to Garibaldi that she's a doomsday weapon. Why create that thread if she was gonna die by a PPG blast in the end? If you read "Final Reckoning" Bester gives a few accounts in which he losses 200 of his best men in the blast that killed them and Lyta. He admits to knowing it was Lyta, because he 'sensed' her power. Of course she would blow her self up, she's a Vorlon time bomb, that's why she told Garibaldi in two she would return to the Sol system. The Teep rebellion was loosing, so Lyta turned the tide by killing 200 of Bester's best men, including herself. sorry for the long rant but hi to all the old Viners!

Posted By: geminilady May 12, 2002 - 07:02 pm

greetings all;new user here.enjoying the discussion,but have many questions: What has happened with crusade? will it ever be carried on? and what about Lyta ,does she really die? she seemed too powerful,too much a part of the vorlons to die.and where can i get copy of "Centauri Prime Trilogy" referred to by Sindatur? thks for any enlightenment anyone can provide!

Posted By: Bmat May 12, 2002 - 07:22 pm

Welcome to the site, geminilady!

PsiProne! Good to see you again!

Posted By: PsiProne May 12, 2002 - 07:37 pm

Thanks Bmat! Good to see you again too!

GeminiLady, try any bookstore like Barnes and Noble, Waldenbooks, B Dalton, etc.

Posted By: geminilady May 12, 2002 - 08:14 pm

Thanks Bmat, and also to PsiProne!

Posted By: Sindatur May 13, 2002 - 06:13 am

Hi Psiprone,

Good to see ya. I remember all that and still, I never interpretted Lyta saying she was a bomb though when she talked about being a Doomsday weapon, I just took it as she was all powerful, etc. I suppose everyone has a little piece of B5 history they would like to change to their own liking, eh? MArcus (both in the series and Time, Space, and the incurable Romantic), Ivanova leaving S5, Talia becoming a traitor, etc. Mine happens to be the death of Lyta in this manner

Gemini Lady, welcome aboard, nice to meet you

Posted By: Nomad May 13, 2002 - 07:56 am

I remember Lyta describing herself as a Bomb in , I believe, "Third Space". The TV B5 Movie. Atleast I think that is where she revealed this to someone. remembr ..."All the mistakes"...in reference to the Vorlons past.

Posted By: Bmat May 13, 2002 - 08:20 am

---

Quote:

Over a million years ago, the Vorlons, believing themselves just one step short of godhood, decided to build a device to open a doorway to what they believed was the well of souls, the source of life. The device, similar in basic function to a jumpgate, did open a hole to another place: a universe inhabited by an alien race even more powerful than the Vorlons, a race that believed itself the only intelligence worthy of existence. The aliens were extremely powerful telepaths, able to take control of many of the Vorlons and turn them against their own kind. Eventually the aliens were beaten back, but before the device could be destroyed, some of the Vorlons under alien influence flung it into hyperspace. The Vorlons never found it.
The Vorlons implanted Lyta with a memory fragment detailing the story of the device, and instructions for its destruction should it be found. They also left her with memories of some of their other mistakes.

---

Posted By: Bmat May 13, 2002 - 08:26 am

There's a synopsis here, but I don't see a reference to her being a bomb so maybe an actual transcript would be better.

Posted By: ZimNova May 13, 2002 - 10:08 am

Bmat & Nomad et al.
That scene was from *Wheel of Fire* (#5.19).
Lyta was having a conversation with, I believe, Mr. Garibaldi which went something like this;
Lyta: "You know in a war when you run out of all your small weapons, then all your middle sized weapons and then all your big weapons, you may have one really big weapon left?".
Mr. G: "You mean a doomsday device?".
Lyta: "Yes, that's what the Vorlons made me".

Also here's some notes from the Lurkers Guide.

---

Quote:

Lyta has been arrested, but Garibaldi plans to get a senator who owes favors to Edgars industries to intercede on her behalf. That's part of a larger deal between the two of them. Lyta knows she isn't qualified to hide the funds she's getting from the Narn ["Darkness Ascending"] so Garibaldi will do it for her under cover of Edgars Industries. He'll maintain two funds: a token public fund to help telepaths in need, and the real fund, which he'll use to hurt the Corps and help Lyta assemble a force she can use against them. After two years, if Lyta is satisfied with his progress, she will remove his inhibition against harming Bester ["Phoenix Rising"].
Lyta has come to believe that her telepathic enhancements are a form of doomsday weapon built by the Vorlons, something they'd use when they'd run out of other weapons against the Shadows.
Since neither of them can remain on the station without causing trouble, and neither of them can go home without attracting huge amounts of unwanted attention, G'Kar has offered to take Lyta along as a traveling companion as he visits alien worlds.

---

Posted By: PsiProne May 13, 2002 - 08:27 pm

more possible spoilers

Some good points, but I have to bring up Bester's description in "Final Reckoning" of what happened that fateful day. He said he remembered sensing a powerful psionic force, one so powerful it could only have been Lyta, for no other telepath existed who surpassed her power at that time. He sensed her because he was a P12 the closest range to whatever P level Lyta becomes. He compared it to a large gravity field attracting smaller gravity fields. The largest of the smallest ones first feeling the pull. This detection of Lyta's "critical Mass" is what allows Bester to escape in the nick of time. Also in Wheel of Fire, Garibaldi describes her power as the equivalent to a telepathic thermonuclear device. Thats where I initially get the idea that SHE's da BOMB! LOL and remember nothing can survive a nuclear blast, including the bomb that was dropped.

Anyway, I just don't think JMS would come up with up her dying from a PPG blast. But of course, maybe she used her power to set something off and had her escape foiled by Bester's men? Now that would just as dramatic to me as it would to have her actually being da Bomb. Plus it would allow Lyta to give some final words before they all blow sky high.

Anyway, I just feel that whatever death Lyta has, its directly related to her powers and whatever choice she makes after her time with G'Kar.

or maybe a PPG blast is what sets it off! LOL who knows what goes on JMS's mind. I just don't think it would as anti-climatic as Lyta dying from a PPG blast that's all.

Posted By: Nomad May 14, 2002 - 10:30 am

With JMS anything is possible. I mean, hey...why not have Lyta basically crate the explosive atomic atmospher around her, but still shield herself fromthe blast ....Hmmmm

Posted By: fanuilh May 14, 2002 - 11:14 am

I guess I'm obtuse. Or unsympathetic. I didn't want G'Kar to die the way he did, either, but it's JMS's story and he can have anything he wants to happen, happen.

What is it about Lyta's death that makes it so hard for people to accept? JMS has already said she's dead, that she died in the blast that destroyed Psi Corps HQ, that she caused the blast that destroyed Psi Corps headquarters, and whether she was "the bomb" or not is a semantics discussion.

She didn't shield herself from the blast. She wasn't killed by some security goon holding a PPG. She didn't miraculously escape the destruction and hide out somewhere.

Lyta died in the explosion. G'Kar was strangled by Londo (under control of his Keeper). Londo was strangled by G'Kar at the same time, after years of misery under alien control. Bester outlived his victims. Sheridan died years before he should have and left Delenn alone. Some of the things that happened to JMS's characters sucked. But they're his characters. It's his story. So it goes.

Oy.

Posted By: Sindatur May 14, 2002 - 11:36 am

LOL Fan. I accept all you say, and I agree 100%, but it's still nice to grasp at straws when you have things that don't add up.

And even though JMS has said things that would certainly lead to your conclusions, it's still difficult to see that she died blowing PsiCorps Headquarters up, there had to be a better way for her to accomplish that goal without dying. Same basic thing as if someone kills themselves drunk driving, you know they're dead, but it's hard to believe they just had to go out and drive, rather than merely calling a friend or a taxi to take them home.

So yes, his intentions are pretty clear, but hard to accept none the less.

Posted By: Ian Viking May 14, 2002 - 11:50 am

The explosion itself can be seen in the Crusade ep Path of Sorrows, when Matheson relived his earlier deeds in the Corps. Looked like a nuke to me.

Posted By: PsiProne May 14, 2002 - 06:14 pm

you're right Ian. I think we did see the blast in which Lyta takes out the PsiCorps HQ as well as herself. BTW, Fan I'm not angry that Lyta dies. In fact, I'm glad that she gets to go out with a bang. If its the way I suspect it is anyway. LOL and that is she's da BOMB! LOL

Anyway I just wanna believe my version of the events because it think its JMS's way of telling us how we kill ourselves to accomlish what we want done in our lives. Maybe not the literal way I think Lyta does in her demise, but in a way that we work ourselves so hard and then, "I'm workin' myself to death over here!" LOL

Of course the theme could be how someone like Lyta would sacrifice herself for the good of all Teeps. I'm mean she sacrificed A LOT during B5's run. i don't think its any less believable that she would kill herself to accomplish something so big as destroying the tyrannic hold of the Psi-Corps. She has all the things a martyr would have right in the beginning in my opinion. And she dies a hero. In fact a teep in the new telepath organization that succeeds the Psi-Corps saw Lyta as a hero in the same terms as Sheridan and DeLenn, just before Bester kills him. She created waves and that satisfies me enough. Lyta is my fav B5 character so I don't wish anything less than her going out in a blaze of glory. The theme is just there to me guys, it really is!! lol

Posted By: PsiProne May 14, 2002 - 06:18 pm

Nomad says, "With JMS anything is possible. I mean, hey...why not have Lyta basically crate the explosive atomic atmospher around her, but still shield herself fromthe blast ....Hmmmm"

Remember JMS has this aversion to godlike characters. Lyta's end has to be fitting of her character using some of what was established during the B5 series.

Has anyone read "The Nautilus Coil"? its a short story covering Lyta and Garibaldi during the Teep War.

Posted By: Sindatur May 15, 2002 - 06:22 am

No Psi, I actually ahven't had the privellege of reading any of the short stories other than Time, Space and the Incurable Romantic.

Is the Nautilus Coil available anywhere now? I've always wanted something more on the Teep War to read, especially after Zim pointed out there were actually 2 Teep Wars.