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Posted By: Iznardi Jun 05, 2001 - 05:38 am

I'm not good at remembering Episode titles, so I figured a generic discussion topic was in order.

Posted By: Iznardi Jun 05, 2001 - 05:44 am

This latest episode with Bester was the one where I "almost" started to like the guy.

Almost.

I though it was great when Walter Koenig sat in the captain's chair on the White Star. I think that is one of Koenig's pet peeves--that he was never a captain on Star Trek (although I think he played acting captain in some episodes).

Anyway, this was always another one of my favorite episodes, in part because of the great scene between Delenn and G'Kar and in part because it finally linked the whole "telepath" storyline with the main storyline. I wish we had learned more about the workings of the Shadow's ships. In fact, there is so much we never learn about the Shadows and the Vorlons I wish JMS would start a novel series about them.

However, this ep leads directly to another one of my favorites that features Lyta. And before that happens we have what I clearly remember as the all-time shocker of the series. Nuf said.

Posted By: Bmat Jun 05, 2001 - 06:58 am

*g* at Iz! Well! Could you get anymore cryptic?!

Does the all-time shocker have to do with a scene with Lyta and her time with the Vorlons?

Posted By: Iznardi Jun 06, 2001 - 07:06 am

SPOILERS!!!!!!!


Nope, the all time spoiler was last night's episode when the Shadows killed Kosh. No one saw it coming, though. It was one of JMS's greatest whammies. I remember the first time this episode aired, the bulletin boards at the old Path Finder Site were hopping for days. There was a huge debate about whether or not he was really dead, whether he was coming back in some form, whether Vorlons could really be killed. A couple people, myself included, came close to quitting the show as viewers. Kosh was my favorite character--the only reason I even watched the first season of B5 (and I skipped a lot of episodes) was to find out more about the Vorlons. Fortunately, JMS rounded us up another Vorlon pretty quick.

This episode is also part of my arsenal for the Sinclair versus Sheridan debate (I am a Sheridan fan, not a Sinclair fan) Bruce Boxleitner played dramatic scenes that no one else could have topped (certainly not that guy who played Sinclair) and the fight with Kosh in this episode is one of them. He was playing opposite a puppet! and it comes across if he was really confronting something formidable and dangerous. I don't think B.B. gets enough credit for how much he brought to the show.

iz

Posted By: Bmat Jun 06, 2001 - 10:03 am

If you haven't seen the series there is a spoiler coming up.

Oh- you mean Kosh was a puppet?? Gosh- it was so realistic...!

*g* Actually, the above exclamation is only half kidding- it is exactly as you said, Iz, that the scene was so realistic. I am not a Sheridan fan, but you may be right that it's not BB but the direction/writing that made him a wimp. I still don't like the way he left his wife and child out of his final moments. Yet, how wimpy is it to go to Z'ha'dum knowing he would probably die. . .. OTOH, his reasons for going were wimpy.

Posted By: Sindatur Jun 06, 2001 - 11:58 am

I guess I must be in the minority.

I liked Sinclair's wooden portrayal. All the things he'd been through in the war, being the first commander of B5. All that adds up. I know when I have started a new job as a manager in a role where things needed to be "straightened out" I have performed my job pretty wooden in the same manner as Sinclair commanded the station.

I also like Sheridan. Sheridan was a warrior who had to play a diplomat, not something he was at all trained for. The unique ways he brought the other races together, the really strong scenes like the one mentioned above. He had a kind of "Kirk - Space Cowboy" quality to him in a universe where everything didn't always work out. While I admit he did some chowderheadish (nod to PC for the phrase) things in the 4th and 5th seasons things generally worked out pretty well for him. He was a "do what you have to do" kinda guy.

Agreeing with Bmat on the Sleeping in the Light abandonment thing.

Posted By: Iznardi Jun 07, 2001 - 04:38 am

Well, it's been a long time since I've made any comment on Sheridan as chowderhead. Normally, I kept quiet about it, because raising the topic sent certain people on long rants, and these got tiresome after awhile. Like I said, I'm not a big Sinclair fan, but I've learned to accept the character. Without him, the War Without End episodes would have totally sucked. But here's my defense of Sheridan:


I've never seen Sheridan as a wimp. There were three different episodes in which we watched Sheridan stand up to torture. That alone eliminates the "wimp" tag. On the physical side, when it came right down to a fight, both Boxleitner and O'Hare tended to throw "sissy" punches. Claudia Christian could have taken either one of 'em, maybe both of 'em. But that's the fault of the fight choreographers. They should have made them go a couple of rounds with Michael York, who at least knows how to swing a broad sword. :-)

As for being a chowderhead, again, I think most of that comes from inconsistencies in the plot. Sometimes JMS had to put story arc over character development, an unfortunate choice, but something necessitated by television. I've noticed that most people seem to blame Boxleitner or "Sheridan" for doing stupid things. I think that's because people refuse to criticize JMS, even though he's the one that wrote the story line. It ain't the actor or the character's fault that the author over-reached on some of the storyline. :-)

As far as I can see, Sheridan's character is pretty consistent, at least until the end of the Shadow War. He was on his way up the military chain of command when he got diverted to Babylon 5. He was sent as a "spy" by people opposed to President Clarke. He had to learn how to fit in and he had to figure out who he could trust. As a fairly young man, he was able to make the transition from command officer to military governor, but not without some problems. Then he finds out that the Vorlons and Minbari regard him as "the right person in the right place at the right time" and he has to deal with the fact that he has a "destiny," or, rather, that they are forcing a destiny upon him. The loss of Anna is clearly an unhealed wound from the past--witness the way he goes ballistic when he gets his hands on Mr. Morden (one of the best Sheridan episodes, by the way). He wasn't behaving like a chowderhead, then, he was just out of control. As for his decision to go to Z'hadum, well, he knew all along that he was going. Kosh knew it as well, because he told Sheridan, "There is a price to pay. I will not be there WHEN you go to Z'hadum." Not "if" you go. So his reasons for going weren't all that important, the decision was made early on, especially after his experiences on Babylon 4, when he had to face a timeline in which Babylon 5 was destroyed, and in which Centauri Prime was devastated. And we all wanted him to go, right? Because we wanted to see the Shadows.

After that, I think some of his character development gets weak. There are a few throw-away lines in the script, suggesting that his fate on Z'hadum "changed" him, "that he's not the same old John." If that's true, it really needed to be more threshed out better in the story line. But if I remember correctly, there were rumors at the time that Babylon 5 would fold before its fifth season, and JMS had to push ahead with the story; so that he may have had to cut corners on some aspects of character development. Problems I saw: Sheridan's political naivete in allowing ISN to portray him as subverted by aliens. He should have known better than to talk to ISN. Likewise, his attempts to hold back and save lives during battle doesn't really fit with his earlier "Blow 'em to hell" philosophy and is kind of inconsistent. Leaving the fleet to free his father is a little more in character, because Sheridan's judgement is frequently clouded by emotions. On the other hand, his curious lack of ability to figure out that something is wrong on Centauri Prime is a stretch. Of all people, he should have seen the signs of a Shadow influence there, especially with his look into the future. And, of course, his choice about how to spend the last days of his life was totally inconsistent. Sheridan was not, at core, a strategist; he was very emotional. So I have always through the "abandoment thing" was really a mistake on the part of JMS, although he liked that ending (obviously).


So there's my two cents on the dollar. Not directed against anyone else's conclusions, just my humble opinion.

iz

Posted By: Sindatur Jun 07, 2001 - 06:28 am

HEHE, I agree with just about everything you said Iz. Although I don't think the "abandonment thing" was out of character. I didn't like it, but I think it was consistent with his character

Posted By: Bmat Jun 07, 2001 - 07:48 am

Iz- I was going to quote parts of your interesting discussion on Sheridan to point out that Sheridan (the character not the actor- after all what is the character but a blend of the writer, director, and producer's imaginations plus the seasoning added by the actor) is a Chowderhead, but I'd be quoting almost all of your message. I am glad the term "chowderhead" was brought back- I couldn't remember it when I used the word "wimp." [Wimp, btw, means ineffectual- so maybe it isn't entirely appropriate- there can hardly be argument about Sheridan's heroism and skill in military strategy.] Sheridan is a Chowderhead, though, for just the reasons brought up in Iz's message- the ISN interview being maybe the high point of chowderheadism. When you know there is anti-alien sentiment in the intended audience you don't snuggle up to and cast doe-eyes at an alien! It's too bad the writing that made him that way, because it detracted from the character- unless, in addition to Iz's stated reasons for the characterization it was a purpose to show us that Sheridan was merely human.

Posted By: MerleZ Jun 07, 2001 - 08:16 am

**MAJOR SPOILERS**
DON'T READ UNLESS YOU'VE SEEN THE ENTIRE B5 SERIES!!!

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Yes, Sheridan was human. That's what makes him so interesting, and compelling. Sleeping In Light I believe was totally consistent with John's character, and I don't believe he "abandoned" anyone by leaving. Kosh sent him a message, as we know from "Day of the Dead" and he did as told. Why take his wife, who he adores, out in the middle of space, only to have him die there? She'd be alone in the middle of nowhere, full of grief. At least by leaving her on Minbar, Delenn could conceivably be comforted by those around her. Besides, looking into JMS's mind, do you recall how powerful that scene was depicting Delenn, as she aparently is somehow psychically aware of John's passing, hugging pillows in the bed, as John met his destiny? I admit to great big crocodile tears over that, and I'm getting teary eyed just thinking about it.

Iz, glad to see someone else on the "Sheridan's not such a chowderhead" team.