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Posted By: MerleZ Jun 07, 2001 - 08:21 am

Now, we get to see WWE 1 & 2. These eps really set the hook, don't they? First time I watched, I'd missed most of season 1. (Frankly, I had found Sinclair so wooden and boring in the eps I'd seen, I wasn't interested in the series, until one night I saw Bruce was the new commander, so I started watching trying to figure out the switch). So seeing Sinclair come back, and the travel to B4, well, I hadn't seen Babylon Squared, so it was all new to me. Great ep, loved Zathras, and the peeks into the future. "This is not right tool" is one of my favorite B5 lines ever.

Posted By: Bmat Jun 07, 2001 - 08:41 am

LOL, Merle! Yes Zathras was wonderful! "Zathras lives a sad life...probably will have a sad death. At least there is symmetry." is another of my favorite lines. I also like the one on the planet where Zathras talks about talking to the dirt.

Some of the best clips are here:

http://b5.sdvc.uwyo.edu/bab5/

Posted By: Iznardi Jun 07, 2001 - 10:49 am

:-)

This was also the episode that had:

Sheridan: "And you beleive this?

Sinclair: "Yes, I do."

Marcus: "If Itzl'za beleives it, then so do I."

Ivanova: "I'll be in the car."


Unfortunately, that exchange isn't so funny once you've heard it. But I remember laughing out loud the first time it ran.

On the other hand, a big rotten tomato to whoever threw in the Lucy and Ethel joke. I cringe every time I hear it.

Other winners:

"Zathras understands. No, does not understand. But Zathras does. Zathras good at doings, not understandings."

"This . . . is wrong tool. Never use this."


Bye the bye--my theory on Londo's greeting. He says, "Welcome back from the abyss, Sheridan. Your timing, as always, is impeccable."

I think this was the drakh keeper channeling through London. We know, of course, that normally a keeper can't do this. But the drakh had never confronted Sheridan in person since his legendary return from Z'hadum. Even during the struggle over the planet destroyer, I don't think they ever encountered him in person. So I think this was their greeting, and they were referring to his fall.

iz

Posted By: Iznardi Jun 08, 2001 - 03:54 am

World With End, Part 2

Well, Cox Cable did me the favor of cutting off transmission every five minutes all the way through the show. So I got to review very little of it, but enough to notice things I had missed in all previous viewings.

I always wondered about the alternate "future" reality and what was happening in it. The first we see of it is Ivanova's announcement that Babylon 5 is under attack, that the captain is dead, and that Garibaldi is trying to rig the fusion reactor. We also see Garibaldi holding off a boarding party, and sending Jeffrey Sinclair to an escape transport. Then the station blows up.

Apparently this is what occurs if Babylon 4 fails to go back in time, and if Sinclair fails to go with it.

I'm assuming that the "captain" that Ivanova refers to is Sheridan. But if so, then in this alternate future, Sheridan and Sinclair are both on Babylon 5 at the same time, and Sheridan is in command. Maybe this alternative future represents a case in which the expedition to Babylon 4 fails, maybe because the Shadows succeed in blowing it up, and everyone returns to Babylon 5 to face an attack that they know will be coming in about eight days.

I also noticed for the first time that when Sheridan appears in the future, he appears inside the body of the older Sheridan (his hair has gray streaks in it in all those scenes). So apparently his "consciousness" temporarily takes over that of the older Sheridan.

Things still left unexplained. (1) Where did Sheridan go the second time he disappeared (he vanishes when he and Sinclair are working on the reactor core, and Sinclair tells everyone, "He's gone again"? (2) Why does the station officer say, "Sir, it's back again" when Delenn appears in the evac suit out in the bay? When had they scene a person in an evac suit before? And (3) Where does Delenn end up when she disappears from the evac bay and before she rescues Zathras?

Amazing how many times you can watch these two episodes and still have questions.

iz

Posted By: MerleZ Jun 08, 2001 - 04:51 am

Ah, now FINALLY we understand why Kosh greeted Sinclair as "Entil'za Valen" in "The Gathering." Iz, I think there's just a bit of confusion as to the whole mess here, and it's because the takes from B Squared were done before it was decided to send Sinclair away early, and bring in Sheridan. The switching of Delenn and Sheridan in the evac suit is confusing at best, as well.

Sinclair's effort to warn Michael to "watch your back!" was particularly heart wrenching. His feelings for Michael are so poignant. I enjoy this episode, and I think this may have been only the second time I've seen it all the way through, and noticed a lot of stuff I'd missed before. Unfortunately, I didn't take notes and I'm 40 years old. Now I can't remember most of them!

Posted By: ZimNova Jun 09, 2001 - 08:11 pm

Spoilers below.
If you have not seen the entire series skip this post.
To Parapharse Zathras, "Time vary unstable, much can/will happen depending on what we do today.
Must get to work, all of us, otherwise time-line changed, bad future for forces of light, time-line must be maintained or all is lost".

The main story in this ep. carries over from *Babylon Squared* (B2).
This is the beauty of a story *arc*. JMS knew what he wanted to do with *WWE 1&2* before the *B2 arc* story was presented even though we viewers did not have a clue at the time.

To Iz & Merle.
We deal with a mulitude of *possible* time lines as seen through various *flash forwards* by Sheridan, Delenn, Sinclair.
I think that each one is unique to that character, but only as a part of a *whole* possible future.
Thus the scene as witnessed by Garibaldi outside of sector 14 in the StarFury is of Ivanova (saying the station was being destoryed), was but was one *possiblity* if things did not work out with the mission.
The *flash forward* by Sinclair was a *different* possiblity, not the same one as we saw from Ivanova or anyone else.
Garibaldi & Sinclair fighting the boarding force was a yet again *different* time-line from that we saw in
Ivanova's vision, but unique to their possible time line.
So the *Captain* was Sheridan in Ivanova's time-line but Sinclair in all the others.
The Vorlons played a part in all of this and at the end of WWE2 were there as Sinclair became Valen.
This is all vary confusing as it was meant to be by JMS.
A simple story is boring. Babylon made us think beyond the *simple* into the *complex*. First rate television.

A couple of small *mistakes*
Near the end, as the crew exits the station (B4) and Zathrsas is hit by a falling sturt, note that the strut starts out as a *square* one but is a *round* one as it hits him.
After the WhiteStar leaves B-4, there is no *hole* left behind in the skin of B-4 even after the WS had cut one to gain access.

Posted By: Iznardi Jun 12, 2001 - 08:28 am

Gray 17 is missing

I always hated this episode but maybe that's because I forgot about Delenn's installation as official head of the Rangers, which was really a great subplot. I watched it all the way through for the first time in a while and was very impressed with Neroo, who becomes such a major character. I wonder if his words, "There is now blood between the Warrior caste and the humans" will be something that is taken up in the Ranger series?

iz

Posted By: Iznardi Aug 22, 2001 - 04:49 am

Sleeping in Light is coming up. This one always affects me, so I figured I would rejunvenate the episode discussion board in case anyone else is watching it. I have never seen the great "effect" of Sheridan looking into the mirror--so I will have to watch closely this time.


iz

Posted By: Iznardi Aug 23, 2001 - 10:08 am

I always find the very end hard to take--when everyone leaves the station and then they turn out the lights and it destructs. That seems to be an instant of real loss. The end of the immediately preceding episode, Objects at Rest, when Sheridan and Delenn leave for Mimbar and everyone assembled on the bridge for "one last look" is another really sad scene. And the dinner party is also kind of a tear-jerker, especially when Vir admits that he really misses Londo. Maybe because it serves as a reminder about how many people are gone at that point.

This time through I did notice a few things. I finally saw the mirror effect. You really have to stare at it hard. Also, it occurred to me that only Delenn actually knew that Sheridan wasn't coming back from his "Sunday drive." I think she was supposed to tell everyone else that he got up early and went out to fly a ship one last time. If they had known it was a one way ticket, I think they would have followed him.

Still don't like parts of the script--not alerting David, for example, and Sheridan simply 'walking out' on his family and friends. On the other hand, I've always liked the scene between Zack and Sheridan. And this time I noticed that when they did the flashback, where Sheridan promises an end to the Shadow War, they also caught that instant when Lennier is glaring up at him with a look of real hatred. So there's always this hint of tragedy within tragedy.

One thing I've never been certain about is whether or not Lorien really comes back to Corialus. Or did Sheridan just hallucinate it, and then disintegrate into a "non-localized phenomenon" like Kosh? If no one comes back from beyond the Rim, then how did Lorien manage it? And in the previous episode, when Lockley asks Sheridan, "Where does all the time go?" he answers, "It goes that way, beyond the Rim," implying that everything on this side of the Rim is bound by the flow of time, which goes only in one direction.

Oh well, maybe I'll have an answer by the next time this shows.

Posted By: MerleZ Aug 23, 2001 - 01:49 pm

Iz, Lorien tells John, "time to rest." I think he kicked off. What happened to his body, I don't know. But I think he died right there. I don't think Lorien could keep him from dying, and his time was up. Perhaps Lorien really did come back, to ease his passing, or to give him a glimpse of what was to come. Or maybe dying is "going beyond the rim" and none of the younger races understand that. Maybe the equivalent to the gift of Illuvatar to Men?

Anyway, this is all off the top of my head. •••• ep always makes me cry. But I watch it, cause the emotions are honest and true.

At B5, I liked how Sheridan repeated, "I was just in the neighborhood, thought I'd drop by."

BTW, have to agree with others who've said so before that demolishing B5 would create a greater hazard to navigation with all that debris than leaving it intact, but shut down. Minor nitpick.

Ummmmmm, what effect in the mirror? You mean I gotta wait through all 110 episodes to see something like that? Arrrgggghhhhh!!!