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Posted By: Bmat Aug 23, 2001 - 03:33 pm

If it's the effect I'm thinking of, and I'm not sure why it isn't being mentioned so I won't mention it either, the discussion on it I read was that is was not intentional.


Agreeing that the episode makes me cry, even though I know what is coming. Poor Delenn left alone in bed curling up in misery....

Posted By: Gail_Storm Aug 24, 2001 - 12:27 am

I too, still can't get through the last few episodes without the kleenex box. No matter how many times I have seen SIL, it still affects me. *Sniff*

I was thinking about the question that someone brought up earlier...about Lorien really returning to Corianus 6. When you hear Lorien's voice asking Who, Why, Where...he also says.."Did you think that 'we' had forgotten about you? We have been waiting for you.' So maybe they are patient like the Drahk waiting for David to grow up to get the keeper.

I too agree about the station being blown up into billions of pieces. If that wouldn't be a hazard to navigation, than what would? It would have been better just to shut it down and leave it be...let the ghosts of the past rest quietly.

:-)

Posted By: Sindatur Aug 24, 2001 - 06:21 am

Like everyone else SiL tears me up everytime I watch it. I still can't get over Delenn's strength in letting Sheridan go alone on his Sunday drive, I don't think I would have the strength to do that. If I were Delenn, against Sheridan's wishes I think I woulda jumped in a WhiteStar and at least followed him, so he could at least feel my soul nearby when he left for the rim.


Like Merle I have always seen "Going Beyond the Rim" as dying or a transition to the next stage of life. The first ones went beyond the rim, because they had lived long enough in this existence and "went Beyond the Rim" to the next plane of existence. If it was a physical place just out there beyond what we know of space, why hasn't someone built a jump gate, or sent explorations or something out there and run into those who've "Gone beyond the Rim".

I believe Lorien did come back for Sheridan as a guide to that next phase of being, without that guide I believe Sheridan would not have succeeded in his trip their, but would have simply died in the normal manner. Because Sheridan had the remnants of Kosh as well as what part of Lorien he was given at Zhadum, Lorien was able to connect with him in order to be his guide, I don't think Lorien could do that for just anyone, although Sheridan maybe can come back and get Delenn when it's her time, because of their deep love.

Agree with the hazzard to navigation of blowing up the station, but as JMS pointed out, it would be way too costly to guard it 24/7 and a ruthless power could hijack it and use it as a war base or such.

I recall hearing something about the Mirror effect and it not being deliberate, but can't remember what the effect was, or why everyone who has seen it is so hush hush about putting a name to it, the series is over afterall, so no spoiler information could be there?

Posted By: MerleZ Aug 24, 2001 - 06:38 am

Yes, please do tell what the "effect" is!

Posted By: Iznardi Aug 26, 2001 - 10:42 am

The Mirror Effect.

Well, I guess at this point, it is no longer a spoiler.

If you watch as Sheridan puts on his old captain's uniform from the Shadow War (the one that Delenn made, and gave to all the crew), you'll see that the rank bar crosses over the gilt on the lapel to form a cross. That was always intentional, I think. However, to Sheridan's right in the mirror, due to an angle of distortion, there is a reflection of some of the architecture in the room, and it also forms a giant cross, toppling over, very similar to the images you see in the iconography of the Stages of The Cross when Jesus is dragging the cross on his back to the place of crucifixion.

This was apparently accidental. According to the log notes in the Lurker's Guide, JMS and the camera man were setting up the shot, and suddenly saw the distortion. "Do you see that?" JMS asked--and then they shot the take immediately, hoping the same distortion would show up on film. It did.

I was always looking for something like a shadow of Kosh or Morden in the background, and so it took me a long time to notice the second cross.

As for "beyond the rim"--I think it must be a physical place where existence continues, because the vorlons and shadows go there in their ships, and are told they will see all those who had gone before. But in Sheridan's case, I don't think he reall does pass beyond the rim. I think, unfortunately, he just dies. Humans are not First Ones, and in the B5 world, I don't think they can pass to this "other" plane of existence. We also don't know for a fact that Kosh or Lorien ever instructed Sheridan to return to Corianus. That message came via Lochley after her experiences in Night of the Dead. Whether Kosh really contacted her, or she just imagined it, is just another B5 mystery.

iz

Posted By: Azziz Aug 26, 2001 - 07:06 pm

I don't think Sheridan is simply human anymore. He housed a Vorlon and given 20 years of life by Lorien. So a part of him, a essance should be able to go beyond the rim because it is Lorien enhanced.

My two cents.

Posted By: MerleZ Aug 27, 2001 - 09:35 am

I think this discussion is much like the discussion of whether Frodo received immortality when he passed into the West. JRRT finally wrote in letters that Frodo, being mortal, could not receive immortality by where he went. He would die and pass beyond the circles of the world, as was natural for his kind.

So I think Sheridan died indeed, though Lorien may have shown him what was beyond the rim. Sheridan had the life of his kind, and Lorien did not have the power of the universe, as it was put in the "religion" of B5, to grant him more than that. Lorien himself said he could only extend Sheridan's life by 20 years, and that after that time he would simply "stop." I like the idea that Lorien was an ambassador, leading Sheridan to the next plain, but I don't think he could give Sheridan immortality.

Posted By: Iznardi Sep 04, 2001 - 08:49 am

I'd love to see the original story arc that JMS scribbled down for this series. It seems to me it all revolved around three basic storys--the Centauri/Narn conflict--which is put center stage right in the first series episode--the Vorlon/Shadow war--which stays in the background for quite awhile--and the origins of human/Minbari cooperation--which ties in the fates of Delenn, Sinclair, and Sheridan. Even reduced to those three basic storylines, it is still an incredibly complicated plot.

iz

Posted By: Bmat Sep 04, 2001 - 11:32 am

Beyond the rim- does that refer to the edge of the galaxy? I figured those who could go there would go live in another galaxy. My guess is that Sheridan actually died.

Posted By: MerleZ Sep 04, 2001 - 01:38 pm

I had always though that "Beyond the Rim" meant leaving the galaxy. I'm not sure where I'd gotten that idea.