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Posted By: Lisseut Jun 20, 1999 - 09:37 pm

Has anyone else noticed the declining standards of fantasy? It is de rigeur to have a male hero who is the longlost heir to the throne, brought up as a farmer, who goes into battle at the head of an army ands wins the hand of the fair princess, just to consolidate his grip on the throne. Sound familiar?

But... If he has been brought up as afarmer, how does know how to use a sword? (I don't belive he can become an expert in a year) Would an army of battle-hardened soldiers let him, a teenage boy with no military training and no experience of war, lead them into war? I don't think so.

Not to mention that princesses, especially those that are the sole heirs to the throne, would be most carefully guarded, and not just by their faithful nannies. If for some reason she was roaming around the countryside in a time of war, would she be likely to strike up a conversation with a peasant boy, who is probably part of the rebellion trying to topple her father? Linguistic differences between the two extremes of society would cause enough problems.

Okay, so fantasy is supposed to be made up, but let's have some realism in the characters.

Posted By: Snotolf Jun 21, 1999 - 12:41 am

I have always thought that fantasy was a bit decadent.
Not only has it lost its originality in its birthyears, it has also never cared to exploit its resources more carefully.
The result must be that there are very few or no new intriguing elements to make up for the continuing decay.
I belief that fantasy isn't a genre on it self, but a literary escape-pod for bad writers. Altough there are exeptions: Tolkien, zelazny, Leiber..
Indeed Lisseut, altough i havent read mutch fantasy, i must agree with you.
I can not understand how one can write eight books (and counting) on the same boring chewed-on topic.
Ok, i admit one has to be inventive to do so,
but inventivity doesn't make up for the lack of plot.
And then there is another thing that bothers me.
Why must all lands or regions, kingdoms or empires have stupid, non-sensial but strange sounding names?
They all end on "or", "ia", "y", or "u".
Why cant it be "Bommerskonten", or
"New York"?

Posted By: Nightice Jun 21, 1999 - 08:10 am

Lisseut, I think you're exaggerating a bit. But even if you weren't...we're talking about FANTASY here! In a way it's supposed to be unrealistic. If the sole criterion was realism, you'd get some sort of Alternate History book.

Usually in Fantasy, magic plays a big part. Can there be anything more unrealistic than that? Compared to that, a farmer and a princess talking with each other is utterly unremarkable.

Fantastic literature would lose a lot of its appeal and charm if it there was more realism involved. Fantasy is sometimes called 'escape literature'. Most people consider that term to be negative, but I don't. Life is real enough, and grim enough as well, therefore something as 'unreal' as Fantasy is very refreshing.

That, at least, is my own lowly opinion.

Posted By: The Master Jun 21, 1999 - 10:01 pm

I don't think Fantasy needs to be realistic to be better, but I get what Lisseut is saying. Some authors definitely force some of the elements together with little thought to common sense.

Still, the most annoying aspects of many Fantasy novels today is the sameness of the plot. A "formula" has become prevalent that has sapped the originality out of many Fantasy books: An unlikely hero gathers a rag tag group of followers who, with the aid of some sort of magic, help him defeat some stereotypically defined evil that inhabits some bleak corner of the kingdom/realm/whatever. In other words, copy what Tolkien did.

Movies are just as bad. Star Wars is guilty of following this formula almost to the letter (yes, Star Wars is Fantasy: "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" = "Once upon a time"). Lucas just put it in Space (good move since Sci-fi is far more popular than Fantasy on the big screen) and added whiz bang effects for thrills. The story is pretty much cookie cutter though.

All in all, I would like more innovation and originality in Fantasy literature.

Posted By: Karen Baker Jun 22, 1999 - 10:39 am

Master:i agree with the majority of what you said, though i do have to make a comment on the star wars thing. lucas PURPOSEFULLY made a cookie cutter fairy tale. he MEANT for it to be that way. sometime, when you want to read something outside of the fantasy stuff, but still close enough to it to be entertaining--read some Joseph Campbell or *argh whats her name?* well, i forget, but some woman who is also the voice of authority on such matters. such matters=fairy tales, myths. we did a study of such in school and it really was very interesting. and, honestly, folks, there really IS realistic fantasy out there. not all fantasy is fluff and magic. it can be called dark fantasy or *again the blanked mind--thats SO annoying* urban fantasy. urban usually takes place in 'our' time/world. anyhow, i think fantasy has come along way. most of the contemporary stuff is really worth your time. if you need any help finding a place to start--just email me *wicked gryn* i can set you up w/ a list of authors/books as long as your arm!

Posted By: daisy Jun 22, 1999 - 09:41 pm

Formulaic fantasy writing? Is anyone thinking of a certain farmboy who took up his father's heron-marked sword and went pell mell into battle? (And before then, it was noted at least twice that the sword just seemed made for the boy)
=)

For urban fantasy, I think of Charles de Lint..he's a good storyteller.

Posted By: Nightice Jul 09, 1999 - 03:04 am

Karen Baker, could "*argh whats her name?*" be Marina Warner?
Aand if it's her, does it make sense to buy one of her books or does it annoy you to have spent the money?

Posted By: Emily Snyder Jul 14, 1999 - 10:51 am

I think (back to the *gasp* original strain), the question is whether there can be realism in fantasy. The answer? Yes. Of course there can...it all depends on whether the author wants to take the trouble to develop a world compeletely, set not merely round but pockmarked rotund characters into the said world, and follow behind with a pen and pencil (or laptop, as the case may be).

Some of my favorite fantasy might be termed "realistic." Some of my favorite fantasy has little to no magic in it (and yes, I'm a weird one who has an entirely different chriterion for fantasy vs. science fiction and the necessity of magic or technology respectively. As far as I can see, the difference is whether it's in this world or in another...anywho). Some examples are Paula Volsky's Illusion or Guy Gavriel Kay's novels that fully explore the sociopolitical element. As a general rule of thumb for me, any book that has the "feel" of Emile Zola or Victor Hugo, or even Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky (you know--all those heavy psychological/political epics we skimmed in school?) moves towards "realism" in fantasy.

On another note, however, I DO sympathize with your concern about the genre worsening. I'm almost on the point of throwing up my hands for a good five years or so and taking refuge in Jane Austen until I can finish something or someone else beats me to the punch for writing good fantasy...realistic fantasy...and not the hacknied prose that most publishers are churning out.

Lord save us!

Posted By: Truman Mason Oct 15, 1999 - 10:00 pm

Ok... I've listened to all your arguments about realism in fantasy. Now how about someone actually coming up with some ralistic scenarios to back up your complaint.

What if the Princess was beaten and left for dead and the boy found her and didn't know who she was and even refused to believer her when she recovered. How's that for realism?

Trumen Mason

(Watch for my new book: Faren's Keep)

Posted By: Lisseut Oct 18, 1999 - 09:55 pm

Hey is that in your book or can the rest of us steal that idea? Sounds like a great place to start a quest for the truth. :)

Posted By: MrPresident Oct 19, 1999 - 02:37 am

Just throwing out ideas.. feel free to use it. Any ideas for crisis scenerios? How about Princess turns out to be so into herself that the boy tries to get rid of her. She keeps following him until he confronts her finally, at which point she breaks down and pleads with him to help her. He does but still doesn't trust her.
Hey, is this the start of a good story or what? How about some of your ideas.