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Posted By: Gestalt May 14, 1999 - 08:37 pm

I hate to admit it, but I have never been into Sci/Fi like the
others here are. So, I'm taking a chance, and posting a new conversation
along the line of Fantasy and Darkness.
My specific interest lies in the world of Vampires.
Though I no not where the line is drawn between Sci/Fi and Fantasy, I like to delve the area of Darkness.
Are there any Kindred or Caitiff lovers out there?

Posted By: Snotolf May 16, 1999 - 12:51 am

Well, I don't like vampires.
But that wont stop me to add something to the discussion.
Vampires are neither S.F. nor fantasy, but an ancient belief, a tale, a legend. It dates back atleast to the middle ages. CFR. the cross, the castle or keep etc.
Origin: Eastern Europe, Moldavia, transilvania, and a lot of places.
But you all know that. Perhaps this all demonstrates that S.F. or Fantasy isnt
recent and not the sole invention of the nowadays S.F and fantsy writers.
Science Fiction is mans most early literature.

Posted By: Gestalt May 16, 1999 - 04:48 pm

The odd thing about vamprire myth, every culture on earth has tales of the creatures that lurk in the darkness.
Africa holds more than 40 types of vampire myths. From creatures that hang from clawed feet from the limbs of trees to snag passerbyer below to globes of light that steal souls, leaving the body to roam endlessly until consumed by flames.
Austrailian Abroigine told of blood and spirit stealing shadows and creatures.
Asia and India the same.
Even in the Mayan Temples have mention of dark creatures that steal the breath and spirits from children, forever condeming them to unlife.
European Vampires are, of course, the most popular.
With the novels by Ann Rice and the Gaming's of White Wolf, the European vampire has evolved from the old mindless creature that killed only for food to the well dressed and organized clans that are popular today.
Even the Asian vampires seems not to of escaped this evolution.
I was under the impression that the clay tablets found in Ur, written in Cuneiform, containing poetry and tales of myth ( monsters that lurked at night, but not vampires ) were the earliest examples of literature.

Posted By: visiting May 19, 1999 - 05:39 am

Why are you stock on vampyres? what's there to know ? - a concept born out of a female imagination in Europe, only a couple of centuries ago! - not much to do with cannibalism -
PS. Im a female

Posted By: Nightice May 19, 1999 - 06:11 am

What do you mean; "born out of a female imagination"? I admit I don't know a whole lot about vampires (my "knowledge" is mostly based on a few novels and movies). Do you think there were bunches of hysterical women scattered all over the world who were afraid of the dark and so invented vampires to justify their fears - or what?

Posted By: visiting May 20, 1999 - 01:53 am

oh dear_dear_dear!!!! woz just highlighting that before this comfy time where we can scatter and nest our egos on the web, humans used pen+paper and wrote novels.
so, there was this young English lady named Mary Shelley (if I remember her name correctly), who firstly wrote this vampires' fiction.

Now, you're right: different folks = lots of related vampire stories, but no one can claim ownership on 'his imagination' … eventhough it's a nice place to feel oneself - as that's just a tapping process in the collective consciousness ... hey hey hey!
i.e., first come-first served basis,
& the one who_wrote_the_book gets the royalties...

Never thought about it that way?
What, seriously, did you believed that all these folks who are on the front lines of Success are born-geniuses?!!
isn't that a bit naiv ?
let them believe it, but you can do better...
well, the palm goes to the individual who’s first or for his own brewing, & that award should be OK for his ego, no?

... fantasized or applied, human perversions always had a dominant appeal in all cultures, as you well recalled the Aztecs etc. and the list can be long if you start that way.
But the point isn't to find out the strength of the worse, is it?
Anyway, nice to have you for discussion, thanks!

Posted By: snotolf May 20, 1999 - 10:59 am

Perhaps Mary Shelley wrote about vampires,
but she is more commonly known as the author of THE MONSTER OF FRANKENSTEIN.

And thus we arrive at the gothic novel...

And may i also add briefly as an argument on visitings lines, that before that comfy time of ego's haunting the net, and presuming we are then speaking of one or a few more centuries ago, 80% of the people were unable to write or read, and therefore could not write novels, and certainly not read them.
They didnt even have pen and paper.

Posted By: Gestalt May 20, 1999 - 06:18 pm

I'm 'stock' on vampires for the same reason so many others are 'stock' on Science Fiction. It is of interest to me. I write about them, have read about them. When I was in Asia I spoke to people who related some of the myths, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Loas. Since then I have compiled myths from all over the world.

Thanks Snotolf for the bit about Mary Shelley. It is easy to get them mixed up, as one monster seems like another, and the authors are sitting in the back seat most of the time, or totally unknown.
A brief run down on the modern writers of the childre of Caine.

Bram Stoker's 1897 book, 'Dracula'.
J. Sheridan Le Fanu's 1871, 'Carmilla.'
Edgar Allan Poe's 1838, 'Ligeia.'
S. Merryweather Davis' 1785, 'When Darkness Dawns.'

There are others from the 18th century, but they only made mention of them in their stories.

The oldest written works on the subject of blood drinking feinds that rule the nights comes from 2,170 B.C.in the Sumerian city-state of Lagash. "The harvest was untouched for several days as the soldiers searched for the terror that stole the blood of Lanchkas' slaves." This is quoted from an account ledger, over 4000 years ago.

Back then they were still night creatures and the only way to kill it was to burn it. When the quote was written, the myth of vampires seems to of been deeply seated in many cultures, as the accounts of them were mearly more than passing stories told at night.

This was pretty much the case untill the Dark ages. Stories have circulated in the Balkans of vampyres, and the first mention of a stake was used and the removal of the head.
Since the middle ages, every conceivable way of making and killing vampires have been discussed.

The ones we hear of today in the books and movies are a far cry from the beasts that prowled the nights only 30 years ago. They have entered the romantic era of writing. Love, sex, emotions, friendships with Kin, or mortals, organized clans that put the Tong and Mafia to shame. Now they have long lineages that they can trace back to Caine himself.

Soon, if it hasn't already happened, they will be on the space crafts to distant stars, reaping a fresh harvest in the night skys far from our own.

Personally, I prefer the older style of stories over todays modern vampires.

Until the sun falls,
gestalt.

Posted By: visiting May 21, 1999 - 12:50 am

oops yes your're right, of course! why did I mixed up & slipped from the vampires' to the frankenstein's ? lapsus

As far as writing goes, Im affraid the 20/80 share is still about valid - and it's not as if, before the US military got this internet thing together for themselves, there was no pen+paper or whatever and just a few initiates to use them! communication has so many forms ... only at a somewhat slower pace ... for at least over 3000 years, no?

To get on, Gestalts' input is a nice good one - gets me to a question for him: after such indepth studies on the vampires myths, do you have a perception, an idea of what motives the need for such fiction? did you came up with your own psy theory - 'd be nice to know more

Posted By: Lisseut May 21, 1999 - 01:44 am

I'm not into vampires but here's a book about creatures of darkness:

Into the Out Of

by Alan Dean Foster. It's based on the mythology of the Maasai, an African tribe.

Posted By: Gestalt May 21, 1999 - 02:55 am

Visiting;
The need for gruesome tales is as varied as the ones who told them long ago. A father speaking to his son, telling him what his father told him, and so on. A bit added here and there as the family unit sits about the campfire, glancing into the darkness that surrounded them.
Or; A priest of a long past culture trying to pull the people back together with fear of the unknown.
We must remember, that the night, even today, holds many fears to 'us modernites' as it did long ago.
Being controlably frightened by scary movies and books, or wondering what is under the bed, have replaced the old frightening stories that were told around campfires while rustling in the bushes confirmed the tales of dark creatures. Today, we can put the book down and return later. Stop the VCR or leave the theater, get in our cars and drive home. We are definatly beings of light. Dark nights around campfires have insprired many a tale of horror and fantasy.
Today, the big box office sellers and the best sellers are primarily about violence of one kind or another.
It is very difficult to surmise the reasons for such tales, but I have to admit, the feeling of fear is quite stimulating. Even in the Sci/Fi circles, invaders from space and from underground have frightened and entertained people for generations. ie: War of the Worlds, Pelucidar, and the Day of the Triffids, just to mention a few.

Ah, yes Lisseut. The book you mention contains several interesting things about vampires, and space beings.
Oh, to be around their night time fires on a moonless night. Even these, the feared warriors of the Maasai, had respect for darkness and took every precaution when they found themselves, alone, in it.

And finally, concerning the Email message I recieved. I'll not respond to it, other than to say, I'm not a professional vampire authority or a hunter, nor am I a drinker of blood. I lick my own cuts and scratches as do most folk, I guess unconsciously trying to clean off the blood when there is nothing to wipe it on but my clothing, but I hate the taste of it. It is undigestable and can kill the consumer if taken in quanity over time.
True, I have lots of information on the myth of vampires, but thinking I'm one, is a myth in its self, as is thinking that Snotolf is an Alien.

Posted By: Snotolf May 21, 1999 - 04:47 am

Would you have a problem if i was? (alien)

Nah...Snotolf is 100 % earthling. But you have a point there, Gestalt.
It came to me just now, when I read your (very interesting, i mean it) lines.

"thinking someone is an alien is mythical."
perhaps now that science has prooven to us, that there are no things as dark creatures haunting at night looking for blood, (kown as vampires (they exist but only in the form of ugly bats),zombies, mummies or wathever;) we move those evil creatures there were science cant prove they dont exist, I.E. DEEP SPACE.

The stories of martians drinking blood of cheerleaders, is the brave new worlds version of the antedilluvian monster-myths.

WHY MUST THERE ALWAYS BE BADGUYS?

Because fear is the mindkiller! he who fears, does no longer think rational. Fear makes us cling together, like our ancesters did in the caves when it was a very stormy night, or just a plain dark night, when hungry beasts left their nests in search for food.

P.S. Gestalt, I didn't mail you!

Posted By: Gestalt May 22, 1999 - 08:47 pm

Snotolf,
No problem if your alien, just the guy I'd want to see. ~ smiling ~

Badguys! Yes, they seem to permeate our stories, fiction, romance, ect.
Badguys = fear.
Fear is a bond.

I know you didn't mail me.

Posted By: The Master May 25, 1999 - 12:41 am

---

Quote:

an idea of what motives the need for such fiction

---

Posted By: visiting May 26, 1999 - 12:52 am

Speculating on this potential:
what if imagined stuff 'could' become realized?
or, what if imagination was a shared consciousness pool that could be tapped and be the 'muse' inspiring any passingby badguy or genius ?

Posted By: Lisseut May 26, 1999 - 06:22 pm

Sounds like a good idea for a novel...although it's kinda been done before. Christopher Stasheff used the first one in his Warlock novels, where people who had psi powers could "create" or animate this mossy stuff. One of those that's technically SF but really fantasy. Charles De Lint had a dream thief in one of his novels, I forget the title. OK, he wasn't really inspired by it, he sucked it all up. It was his lifeforce.

An interesting idea though.

Posted By: daisy May 26, 1999 - 07:01 pm

I'm curious to know if the Charles de Lint novel you refer to was "Memory and Dream"? I thought it was an good book.

Posted By: Myrddin007 May 26, 1999 - 07:51 pm

I think Karl Jung (or was it Carl?) had some theories on universal consciousness and whatnot. And he wasn't working in the field of Science Fiction. As for imagined things becoming reality, C.S. Friedman worked with that in her Cold Fire Trilogy. Actually, in the books, a particular planet had a mysterious element called the Fae, which was impressed by the minds of the human settlers thus creating out of nothing all the things of our myth and fantasy. Unfortunately (for reasons never explained), only the really bad stuff seemed to manifest, and it took the work of special sorcerers or of mass religious fervor to create anything good. Go figure.

Posted By: The Master May 27, 1999 - 01:06 pm

Voyager even did an episode with (sort of) that theme. The people on the planet they were visiting were all psychic and thoughts could influence the behavior of those around them. Due to the laws against negative thoughts, an underground had developed to share "bad" thoughts (like drug dealers). Naturally, the Voyager crew was a gold mine of bad thoughts and negative emotions so the pushers probe their minds and start spreading them around. As those thoughts spill over to passersby, some of the natives go nuts and start killing each other. All in all, a fairly complex idea for a ST episode and one which was executed well considering its on TV.

Vampires are often portrayed with psy powers and the ability to control minds.

Posted By: Lisseut May 27, 1999 - 10:03 pm

Daisy, I think it might have been. There was a writer, Caitlin, who went into other worlds in her dreams and wrote down the stories she was told by one of the people there. I liked it too. He wrote another one which was really good, moonheart I think it was called, about the bard/wizard Taliesin.

Posted By: Gestalt May 27, 1999 - 11:40 pm

Yes Master, psy and mind control are only a few powers at a vampires disposal. I'll only talk here at this time about the Euro/American vamps, as that is what most people relate to when they think of vampires.
In the days of old, they were dirty vicious predators, rising from their graves to kill so they may live. These fellows, as far as I found, could change into bats, sheep, horses, wolves and a mist. About the only other thing was super strength.
About the time of the inquisition, legends or myths have vampires moving very quickly, speaking to animals and commanding them and 'kin' (mortals or humans) what were of weak minds. Tales from the Balkans tell us that vampires could sooth, or put to sleep, its victim, talking only 'some' vitae (blood) from a knife wound to the wrist and licking the wound so it would heal. By doing this, it was easier for the vampire to live amongst the kin and go undetected. The name for the victims being used in this way is 'Herd'. If a vampire played it right, he could live in Vienna, Rome, Berlin, Athens, wherever and maintain a herd for feeding purposes.
In the 19th century a new evolution came about.
Fangs.
Until the use of fangs, the vamp would bite and tear, use a dagger, ect. Most of the old vamps consumed the flesh as well as the vitae of the victim. With the advent of fangs, a cleaner kill could be made and only the vitae consumed.

To hurry along here;
Today, the vampires are extraordinary creatures. They have at their disposal a myriad of powers, or Disciplines.

Animalism = Speaking and controlling the lesser beasts.
Auspex = Reading the minds of others
Celerity = Quickness of movement.
Chimerstry = The ability to cause illusions.
Dementation = Allows a vampire to channel the madness, that is within all vampires, into those around it
Dominate = Influencing the thoughts and actions of others.
Fortitude = Vamps use this to lessen the affects of sunlight, fire and injuries in battle.
Necromancy = A magical learning that commands the soul of the dead.
Obfuscate = The ability to conceal themselves from others sight. Not becoming invisible, but making the other person 'think' they don't see them.
Obtenebration = Power of darkness.
Potence = Gives the vamp super strength.
Presence = Can inspire zealous fervor, devoted passion, or terror.
Protean = This allows the vamp to change physical form.
Quietus = Focus' the destruction of its victim through poison, vitae control, pestilence.
Serpentis = Evoking primordial fear.
Thaumaturgy = Blood magic and sorceress arts.
Vicissitude = The ability to sculp flesh and bone of other and ones self.

This is only one small portion of the vampires of today. Each of the 'Disciplines' are broken down into a more finite description, with levels within each Discipline.

Then, there are the vampires who have these powers but don't refer to them at all.
It is all up to the author of the story as what their characters possess. The imagination is the limit, as in Sci/Fi, as to where and what vamps do.

And I like your 'Fear' input. Well put.

Posted By: visiting May 28, 1999 - 12:10 am

speaking of adrenaline shot / lust for fear:
a very scary thing (at least for me) yesterday.
one, the news in the media that cloned sheeps are aging 'abnormally' fast, to understand: they're dying, after just being born. Because of the aged cells used for cloning. Didn't "they" knew it before?
What scares me is that uncontrolled but dangerous 'sorcerer aprenticeship' is done on our back by our reps.
The other one, a TV debate on health regulation: nearly all European countries prohibit the use of genetically modified agriculture, tending to a European prohibition (how do you call them in the US?), which is largely, if not extensively, exploited in the US.
Are you informed, as US citizen, on the consequences of the use of these "GMA"? !!!
That should give you enough adrenaline shots for the week-end, Master!

Posted By: Snotolf May 28, 1999 - 06:18 am

One question, Gestalt.
Where do Vampires study?
If they posses those and more powers, they must have learned to use them, or learn to exploit them better.
I can not imagine there is a "vampire-only Oxford". Or is there?

No, visiting, cloned sheep do not age faster.
But when they are born, they already HAVE the age of the parental sheep (i.E. the sheep from which the genetic material was taken from). In this case, doly was born as a six year old sheep!! This is a result of telemeters or somethin. Each time a cel doubles, they reduce in number, and when a cel runs out of this telemeters, they can no longer duplicate, and thus die. This is the aging proces you speak of.

Posted By: Gestalt May 28, 1999 - 06:49 pm

Visiting,
I must confess my ignorance of cloning.

Snotolf,
When a mortal is Embraced, ( the blood removed from the body and a little of the vampires blood is added ) the progeny, or childe, becomes the responsibility of the Sire, the original vampire. The Sire should teach his Childe all he knows.
This is if the vampire writer/reader is into clans. ie: White Wolf Publications.

On the other hand, the Rician (Ann Rice) vampires without clans seem to do the same.

The new vampire is the responsibility of the creator.

As for Oxford, close. In the format of clans, the elders are always studing and impoving the arts of Disciplines.
Since I lean toward the 'Clan' type of vampire I concure with this. Following a strict code of hierarchy these vamps learn and teach.
The Rician vamps seem to just have the knowledge, passed down. How they get the greater powers I have no idea.

Hmmm, a six year old at birth. Interesting. Gives me an idea on the cloning of kindred, or vampire.
Got to run to my lab, see ya.

Posted By: bobthemonkey Jul 06, 1999 - 12:09 pm

Interesting stuff, I must say

Posted By: Tawien Jul 07, 1999 - 02:48 pm

First off-Gestalt I am a kindred fan! Second I find vampires to be very interesting subject. I tend to have a lot of philosophy when I am writting about vampires and tend to think of them more as Fantasy creatures living in the modern realm. I suppose they can cross over into the sci-realm. But genrally they seem more in their element when they are on earth with a romantasicm and an age old shrewdness that seems to float about them like an invisible shield. Most people tend to think of them as soulless but actually i believe differently; I belive that some of them have souls while the others choose not to. The ones who choose other wise are mainly the ones who let their souls be lost in this change-this transformation rather. It's like any one who chooses to be an aetheist. To those who carry a belive the aetheists are soulless. The aetheists think this is not so. The other vampires have souls but there isprobably something that is conflicting within themselves; something lurking within the murky water which symbolizes their souls. That's just a thought. =)

Posted By: Snotolf Jul 13, 1999 - 11:46 am

Vampires in Sci-fi...

That, Tawien, reminds me of a book i once read.
It was about a bacteria that turned 99% of mankind into vampires, except one or two here and there.
They werent real vampires, however, but they couldnt resist light, garlic, and they were kind of undead too.

I know this story was used for a movie starring Charlton Heston.

And indeed, the vampire is archetypical for romanticism...the pale, condamned homme fatal...

Posted By: The Master Jul 13, 1999 - 10:18 pm

If I'm not mistaken that was the plot of "The Omega Man".

Posted By: Snotolf Jul 14, 1999 - 09:57 am

Exactly...

But the book was named:
"I AM A LEGEND"


I also liked the book more....