We have moved to new forum software and posting here is closed!

PLEASE BOOKMARK THE NEW FORUMS

Posted By: Snotolf Apr 27, 1999 - 04:27 am

I know everyone has his own opinion on this issue (thats why i would like to talk about it...), but I don't think contact between aliens as smart, dumb, ugly or as beautifull as they come would be a very good thing for the human specie.
Whats you idea about it?

Posted By: Plasmid Apr 27, 1999 - 08:41 am

I don't know about that. It might be a good thing.
If they were dangerous, they might help unite the nations of Earth (I know that sounds like something from Independence Day, but it might work).
If they were good, they might serve as a positive example for us to strive for.
If they were superior technologically, it might stimulate an increase in learning, much like the space race of the 50's and 60's.

Posted By: The Master Apr 27, 1999 - 08:54 pm

I have to go with Snotolf on this one...

If they were dangerous, they would wipe us off the face of the globe (the computer virus in Independance Day was the stupidest thing I've ever been subjected to BTW).

If they were good, people would still freak out when they showed up (religious frenzy and all) and we might just wipe ourselves out.

If they have superior technology (sort of a given, yes?), and they help us, human inqenuity and invention would stagnate. "Necessity breeds invention"...that sort of thing.

I'm of the firm belief that no self respecting alien would bother with a backwater little dirtball like earth and its bickering masses. Unless, of course, they just needed to make a pit stop!

Posted By: Crowe May 04, 1999 - 07:51 am

I guess I got 2 cents I can spare.

If aliens came, it would be bad. Many many reasons, some of which have been already covered.

The obvious, if they come this far its for a reason. Its not to pick out a cute pet, its to bring back food, resources, or even find a new place to live. We all assume they will be carbon based life forms, if thats the case, they will bring diseases with them that we won't be able to handle, just like they have been spending the last couple hundred years on earth researching. Guess that tells you how I feel about their existance eh? :)

If they are silicon based, or something even more strange, they probably wouldn't even stop here. But if they did, it would be military reasons. Expansion, Slaves, whatever. Think about it. Its what we would do, they won't, can't be any different. A peace loving race wouldn't explore space. Why not? Because exploration leads to discovery and that will lead to compitition.
When people/beings compete they will eventually form alliances etc. no more peace.

Of course, this is just my theory ;)

I don't beleiv it could be a good thing if they came. In the off chance we survived, we would devote the worlds resources to space travel, we would get into the galactic game and eventually be conquered because we are so far behind.

Posted By: Snotolf May 09, 1999 - 11:50 pm

Wait a minute...

If they were carbon based, that would mean they couldn't land out here without being sure they wont get killed by our bacteria first. So they will have to come up with some
kind of protection.
If they are able to protect themselves, they have to be able to protect us from their bacteria too.

But anyway, I still doubt the existance of smarter aliens. scientist have been looking for life sustainable planets for over decades, and all they came up with are a few gas-giants. If there were smarter aliens, they would have more advanced methods to search for other intelligent life, and they MUST have found earth all ready, since it is quite unique. Perhaps we are not smart enough to make ourselves being discouvered.

Posted By: Gestalt May 14, 1999 - 03:31 pm

I think it would be to our advantage to make contact with another species if the oppertunaty arose. It has been proven, here on earth, that isolation doesn't work. It stagnates the isolated civilazation. Contact with others, whether aliens or other humans, seems to me to be the most benificial of choices, other than isolation.
Trade could be established.
Medicine. Cancer, HIV, the cold, could possibly be cured.
Goods of what ever kind they have, that we could adopt, and vise versa.
Space travel and scientific advancements, the possiblities are endless there, only limited by our imagination.

About us looking for aliens. As you said, quote, "Looking for decades and all they came up with are a few gas-giants".
Hey, gas-giants are big enough to wobble the star they circle. The prospect of smaller, more life compatible planets are there. Look at our own giants in our system. If you were 35 million light years away, you may see or see the effects of our giants on our own sun. But the likely hood of seeing earth is remote using the equipment we have to view the skys with.
Our radio telescopes and others we are using are tuned to our knowledge. Who is to say that there isn't something out there that our radio and visual scopes are not picking up.
I do think there are life supporting planets out there. The odds are just too great. The same with the few that support intelligent life.
They laughed at Columbus, and look what he found, right on our own planet. We have poked around a bit in our own system, but who is to say what will be found once master long distance space travel.

Time will reveal the answer and we may all be dead by that time, but our children my be the ones to find out. Our technology may be too primative to find others at this point in our development, but it is making strides in that direction.

I'll sit here, in my overly stuffed, overly comfortable chair, and hope, dream and pray that we do make contact.

The doomsayers say we will be erased from the planet. Why? If there is someone out there capable of doing that, why would they? Why haven't they done it yet, if we are known to them?

The last thing, I wish to comment on. I don't believe we will be top dog in knowledge and advancements when and contact is made. Even here on earth, one can always find someone smarter than ones self, stronger, faster, ect. I don't see why that should stop when our gravitational feild has been left behind.
Life out there could be right around the corner, or the other side of the universe.
I think it is there.
Thanks for your time.

Posted By: Snotolf May 15, 1999 - 03:22 am

Well, speaking of Columbus, Gestalt, you know what the first thing he did when he arrived on San Salvador (as he himself named it) was?

He planted the red and blue flag of Aragon and Castilia, he claimed all the land and its resources in the name of his king and queen.

And then Cortez followed...We all know the story.

As it has been proven several times, history repeats itself. And there will be another Cortez, and he will travel in a titanium clad
starship, instead of a rotten gallion.

The only thing we don't know for certain, is wether or not, this Cortez will be an alien or a human.

Posted By: Crowe May 15, 1999 - 07:43 am

Well put Snotolf. Its not whether or not contact is good or bad, its a good thing. War has been the driving force of technology since we picked up clubs and beat each other about the head and shoulders over good camping ground or women.

Its a strange part of nature i guess. Survival of the fittest I suppose.

Crowe

Posted By: Gestalt May 15, 1999 - 01:35 pm

I guess we are doomed.

Posted By: Gestalt May 15, 1999 - 10:37 pm

Naaa, I retract my last statement, Snotolf. I was merely suprised at the gloom you project.
What I don't understand is how you precieve another race, alien or whatever, to be as violent as we are. Imagine a race that knows not of war. Is so far advanced that it doesn't need to stoop to barbarianizm. 'If' there are others out there, maybe they fear contact with a race that kills for pleasure, kills their own kind. I'm not proud of our own past, and if I were out there, looking down on earth, I don't think I'd want to socialize with us.
We humans seem to put everything into a neat little pigeion hole so we can relate to whatever is different than ourselves. I see people giving human traits to animals, trees, ect. I fear your doing the same with our yet discovered neighbors.
I don't see an Evil Empire tossing X-wings at us. I merely mentioned Columbus as a discoverer. If they were going play Cortez, why haven't they already eradicated us? Heck, they may not even own a firearm. They could be totally mental. Speculation runs rampant in the area of the unknown. Fear of the unknown is our worst enemy.
As stated earlier, the masses will freak out, but if the aliens truely mean peace, as I firmly believe, they will show it in some way we never thought of. If they are warriors, ~ smiling ~ They may meet their match here.
Myself? I have a bottle of wine to share with them. If they drink. If not, pleasant conversation and the trading of ideas and knowlege, and I invite you Snotolf, to set with us as we discuss new sciences, cures, materials for building things, ect.

Posted By: Gestalt May 15, 1999 - 10:47 pm

Something I forgot.
Master, I must disagree with you about:

"If they have superior technology (sort of a given, yes?), and they help us, human inqenuity and invention would stagnate. "Necessity breeds
invention"...that sort of thing."

New ideas and new inventions also breed new ideas and new inventions. From the simple mastery of electricity, look what he have. If someone showed us how to harness this tool, I think we would of developed it into something useful. That is only an example.
We have some wonderful minds and what ever we could gleen from them, we would adapt and use for our best interests.

I feel guilty now, taking up so much space.
Sorry.

Posted By: Snotolf May 16, 1999 - 12:38 am

It is as Crowe said. It's when Man took up his first stick or stone, and started to use it in a rather agressive manner, it came to him that if he got smarter, he would also get stronger. By using nature against herself, man became the evil dictator of the earth.

I think an early specie can only evolve to intelligence, when it is under pressure. The exact same pressure the Human specie was under 4,5 million years ago. They had only one card to play: their reasonable, but asyet undevelopped intelligence.
And in order to devellop it, as human went along in time, fighting and clubbing, they invented the art of war.

Now I cant think of ANY other way for a specie to escape from animaldom if not by agression.

So then here it is: All intelligent species must be agressive, becaus this agression was a necesarry step in its evolution.

P.S. Gestalt...
I only mentioned Columbus as a discoverer too
And how he discovered!

Posted By: Lisseut May 18, 1999 - 12:16 am

One reason they haven't found "life" on other planets is that the universe is enormous, and they're really not looking all that hard. Funding for the Mars program was hard to come by and Mars is pretty much right next to us in comparison. Also, it's like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack only this haystack is much, much bigger and made of almost identical needles. The single needle we are looking for is only slightly different, but we don't even know how yet.

As for whether aliens are a good thing or a bad thing, well, we can only predict alien behaviour by assuming they are like us, and why should they be.

We don't even know what we're looking for. How has "intelligent life" been defined? Using Earth concepts of biology and psychology which results in a very narrow definition. There must be things we cannot even imagine, it would be like trying to explain colour to a person who has been blind since birth, they can have no concept of it.

Anyway, if they have been monitoring us they would soon realise that a) if they are peaceful they wouldn't want to associate with us, and b) if they want to destroy us they wouldn't waste their energy and could just wait for us to finish ourselves off.

Or maybe they're also wondering about life on other planets but don't have the technology to find it...

Posted By: Snotolf May 18, 1999 - 10:56 pm

Universe is not that big at all, I must say.
For instance, the likely borders of the universe are believed to be the Quasars. It is true, they still are very far away, but that prooves Universe has its limits. An if it has limits in space, it must have its limits in time, and limits in everything.
Thus it is clearly not so that the possibilities are infinate.

Posted By: Anonymous May 18, 1999 - 11:33 pm

Now I start breathing ...
Very scary to read the arguments exchanged between Crowe/Snotolf/Gestalt..., I hardly wanted to correct or add anything, felt threatened by the level of your argumentation, as in middle-ages times, you seemed ready to kill anything that would have been "different" or "foreign" or outside of your argumentation scope. You would have needed to destroy me.

till Lisseut's humor evolved the discussion to more "human" dimensions ...

To resume, we're not just surrounded by "gas-giants" - planets are just being discovered (starting around Peg.51) and our galaxy is only one among billions - what are we? to pretend to be the only ones, or the greatest, the most evolved, the most vulnerable, etc?

As Lisseut brings it, "There must be things we cannot even imagine ...
we can only predict alien behaviour by assuming they are like us"!

It seems that your own limits are limiting your speculations...
Not just poor, but very dangerous threads... The good thing is that such debate may contribute to evolve to higher levels

Posted By: Doris May 19, 1999 - 03:46 am

Suggest, one day we will be landing on a strange planet with a primitive culture on it. In the beginning we would be examining the world without them noticing us, so we would not interfere them. Then, we come to the horrible conclusion they posess technology to destroy their own world. What would we do?
Would we decide not to intrfere and watch how a potential allie and future tradingpartner destroys herself?
Or would we decide to interfere and save them? Than there would be two possibilities: they would be grateful and become the allie we wanted them to be, or they are as stupid as humanity once was and keep going on the same way, so the eventually become a dabger for all others, including humanity, when they start exploring the galaxy.
See the point? If there are people watching us they have to deal with a great dillema. That is the reason why they haven't made contact yet, they simply don't know what to do with us.

Posted By: Anonymous May 19, 1999 - 04:43 am

"If there are people watching us they have to deal with a great dillema."

You betcha!

"they haven't made contact yet,"

Sure?

What about considering that we live among different that consciousnesses grasp according to their respective , thus leading to billions of potential combinations...?

Thanks for these philosophical /metaphisical /esoterical exchanges
There might not be just middle-ages levels of tolerance on internet, afterall!!!...

Posted By: Anonymous May 19, 1999 - 04:48 am

PS: there is a bug, got part of it!!!!!! (don't use pointy brackets!)

Missing was:

What about considering that we live among different 'level of realities',
that consciousnesses grasp according to their respective "allowed" 'level of understanding',

thus leading you to billions of potential combinations/explanations...?

Posted By: Snotolf May 19, 1999 - 10:32 am

does that mean we are going to be here for a very very very long time dicussing this odd subject? (which i seem to have started myself)

Posted By: Lisseut May 19, 1999 - 11:05 pm

Yes!

It's an issue which really can't be resolved unless it happens, but it makes for an interesting discussion.

As for the universe being finite, it is but still huge compared the distances we can travel or even perceive. Quasars were only found recently and we only know where black holes are because we can't see them. Our "senses" are very limited and theory exactly that - corrections are being made all the time.

Posted By: featherlight May 20, 1999 - 01:59 am

Snotolf, no if you touched the end of your thought.
but if you need a change, you could go to the other topic next block and answer my answer to you ?

Posted By: Doris May 20, 1999 - 07:03 am

Anyone ever heard about drake's equation?

Posted By: Snotolf May 20, 1999 - 10:35 am

Yes, i heard about it...
Its a formula that enables us to predict the likelyness of alien life in the universe. It is highly complicated, and not finished asyet.

Posted By: Snotolf May 20, 1999 - 10:46 am

What topic did you mean, featherlight?

Posted By: Crowe May 20, 1999 - 05:43 pm

For those who think we are fighting, you prove my point exactly.

See, if 3 people can disagree about a subject.. Imagine what races will do when they collide.

White man found Indians and killed them. White man enslaved blacks, and killed them.
Hitler slaughterd Jews and other races by the thousands.

The nature of EXISTING is to expand, procreate and expand again. If there is a superior force, we must rice to equal or surpass it to ensure our own species. Otherwise, they could .. COULD ..decide to enslave or even destroy us. What makes you think they are different than us? If they are so perfect.. why would they even need to leave their own planet.. They wouldn't. I'm not saying they are going to be simply aggressive. Thats crazy. However, when they get here and see us, they'll either think we are idiots destroying ourselves and kill or enslave us, or we WILL be idiots, piss them off and they will destroy or enslave us.

And I don't care how many facts you think you have, how many books you may have read.. its still just an opinion. I might not like it, but I love arguing with you about it ;)

We'll see when the come what happens. And while you stand there to great them and they roast you with their laser weapons, I'll be hiding in the hills like any smart animal would until a time when I can strike and help take back my planet!

Crowe

Posted By: featherlight May 21, 1999 - 01:16 am

to Snotolf: the topic posted last on the phi & sci-fi board

to Crowe: isn't that an animal name? (Im not American) do you believe you could fly away and hide? aren't you affraid of your own projections? needing a good alarm system? got a good life insurance?
Sorry, just silly kidding

why do you only count 3 fighting ones? you can find as many as you want - everyone can have his/her own perception that he/she wants to defend - and here you go!

who thinks here we're fighting? it's in you! - the seed for fight or battle or war - unless one grows over his own ego and does not fear the difference and know how to deal with the agression that's in life itself, as you said, the nature of existing ...

No need to go back to Hitler. did you ever wonder why the nato choosed the military solution with Milocevic? instead of ...

there are other ways & solutions. can't we find some of them? Mindset

Posted By: Gestalt May 21, 1999 - 02:05 am

The great concern I have in finding life on another world is the commercial aspect. Think of going to the planet Astar, standing in line at McDonalds as a three legged bright yellow employee takes your order. (This may sound silly, but the reality of it looms)
Even if we don't go after them with rays and tanks, they will still be attacked by fat and cholesterol.
One way or the other, they are as doomed at any new one the white man ever touched in our own past.

But, more seriously, I hope the human race has the leadership to guild us into this era when it happens without harm to either side. I for one have faith in a mutual meeting, one that would lead to benifits to us and them.

Posted By: Snotolf May 21, 1999 - 04:29 am

Speaking of McDonald's...

Isn't that guy an alien? I mean...red hair, red nose, horrible pale face, yellow space suit, and serving us multi-colored but less tasty space food.

There could be a chance the aliens we are talking about look just as silly, perhaps even more so...And the I would really start fighting them for good!

Posted By: Crowe May 22, 1999 - 11:49 am

I think we've found our defense here.
They obviously love cows. They come down
and cut them up and eat them.

We might as well throw burgers at them. While they are eating, we can steal their
technology and learn to defend ourselves.

Thats probably why they haven't gone to war with us yet. They know we have burgers and they can't seem to figure out how to make the secrete sauce. God bless fast food. Now we have something to barter with!

Crowe

Posted By: The Master May 25, 1999 - 12:30 am

Victory by virtue of bad diet...I like it!

Posted By: featherlight May 27, 1999 - 12:16 am

back to Gestalt's
your hope of a human leadership and faith in its ability for guidance in such inter-planetarian meeting, (Gestalt, correct me if that's not your idea),
is self-programming
that is, you could discover what you're hoping for, or fearing
---
As a non-US creature, I consider McDo's and such multi's as invaders of a very low kind, building up their power from sucking other low level creatures that are not dying from their diet --- Crowe, bad example for babies, as they succeed over and over!

Posted By: Gestalt May 27, 1999 - 09:58 pm

What I hope for is a sensable meeting with the 'aliens' if and when it ever happens. This is something that I believe should be planned, or have some sort of guide line to follow. Not do what the movies do, send in troops. Hostilality will be met with the same.
I would hate to see the human race decimated, enslaved, eaten, ect. because we can't do anything but attack the new comers.
If we had some sort of intelligent welcome for them, rather than clubs and lasers, all just might work out fine.
Finding the people and devising a reception is the hardest part. Everyone has their own ideas. One Earth. Gotta work together.

And ditto on your last statement featherlight.

Posted By: Snotolf May 28, 1999 - 06:08 am

My guess is we wont even SEE them coming when they do. It's not like they are going to send us an invitation to witness their first landing (with a cliché U.F.O and the lighteffects to match.). We will NOT know when and where they will arrive, if they havent already. And there will be absolutely no time to send troops anywhere if they should decide to attack us, becaus the fight will be over within hours.

Posted By: Crowe May 29, 1999 - 11:58 am

I think aliens have been visiting us for some time now. The possible reasons are paramount. We could speculate all day. They may be building up biological information to protect themselves from infection, they may be advance scouts, they may be surveying our assets (natural resources, etc) or just waiting till we are ready intellectually for the experience.

But, if their intentions are other than galactic friendship, we won't stand a chance. If they can travel this far, they have the technology to harness power and they will destroy us. However, they haven't done so yet, so maybe they are peaceful. But then again, maybe they just need more time to figure us out so they can properly control and enslave us. Or worse. Who knows though? Only government has the answers, as they have had contact with the aliens already. They have traded humans for technolog.

Very X-Files eh? But it is a likely possibility.

I think its wonderful that some of you beleive in humanity, and the nature of beings so much that you think it will be a peaceful encounter. I certainly hope so. Because if we ever plan on getting off earth, we are going to need their technology.

I for one want to see the stars! What if the aliens that come didn't even invent the technology they are using. What if it was given to them by a visiting race. But the visiting race didn't invent it either, it was given to them and so on.. So where did it come frome?

Maybe god is an alien race. And eden is somewhere in the cradle of the universe.

Blah, Its all just semantics. :)

Crowe

Posted By: Gestalt May 29, 1999 - 03:48 pm

All I can say, Snotolf, is I hope your wrong.

Some very good points Crowe.
A lot of talk about abductions, sightings, Blue Book cover ups.
I live in the Pacific Northwest, Bigfoot country. Was listening to a late night talk show, Art Bell, a while back and some guy from Oregon said that when UFO sightings occur, so do Bigfoot sightings. I've heard this before from the locals. Anyone else heard anything like that?
The Oregon expert on UFO sightings had several possible explainations.
1. Bigfoot is the alien.
2. People begin to see things, UFOs and Bigfoots due to an unknown solar cycle, simular to the moon cycles.
There were others but I don't remember them. Those were the ones I remember, I guess because they weren't as far fetched as the others.

Quite possible they are already here. Heck, the tabloids ran a picture a few years ago with Ross Parro ( not sure of the last name, but he ran for president a few years back ) and an alien with there arms around each others shoulders. As far as I know, Ross didn't disclaim it. If he did I never heard of it.

This Roswell thing. Happened in 1948 I think. I also heard that the transistor was developed from looking around the wreaked ships that crashed. The transistor came out a year or two later. Could be a coincidence.

And, what about the cave drawings from somewhere in Africa, of a guy with a helmet on?

Speculation and light humor. Hey, I'm only an earthy also.

Posted By: Lisseut May 31, 1999 - 01:38 am

Don't forget that there are still people who believe that Elvis is alive.

Posted By: visiting May 31, 1999 - 05:47 am

minds can evolve to higher levels of understanding, that's my 'very' optimistic statement! Lisseut, why don't you let them believe what they can - you also have the believers in Hitler's, etc, why pay attention to the worse?

Snotolf, "Maybe god is an alien race" ?
well? Maybe god is nothing but what our minds can conceive.

Further to Crowe: "I for one want to see the stars!"
This, any mind - somewhat evolved and trained - can do, see stars / travel there and more. for instance, buddist technics & experiences have been shared and described long ago. in-depth details now on the net

and Gestalt, "what about the cave drawings from somewhere in Africa, of a guy with a helmet on?"

so what? Olmecs had helmets on - see a nice and huge olmec sculptured head in a museum in Mexico DF.

Drawings, paintings etc. are the artist' vision and (true) artists are visionary, have "psychic" abilities, can paint their out of time/space visions that can be ahead of time, etc

Another thread: think of sci-fi flicks script writings, like The Matrix's: which mind gave birth to the idea of such a multi-level story ?!... what do you believe?

now 2 guys are getting the fame, after receipt of the inspiration - which one can say is also a talent ... or a gift!

Posted By: Doris Nov 18, 1999 - 06:20 am

I see the last message dates from may 31 here. Has everyone lost interest?

If someone still reads this: think of this.
What about the political aspect of an encounter with aliens?
For example, an alien spacecraft lands in washington D.C., an ambassador comes out of the ship, walks to the white house and presents an economical en diplomatic cooperation. But soon it is found out that these aliens have an economy and politics not based on the american free-marked system, but use the communistic ideology. Or fascistic. Or maybe religious fundamentalistic. What a shock would that be! How will America, or Islam fundamentalists or communists, react on that? Abort the cooperation? Start a war?