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Scifi and Fantasy Forum: Writer's Discussion: Questions :
Elves and things?:
Archive through Jun 26, 2003
Archive through Jun 26, 2003
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Posted By:  Exzarius Apr 23, 2003 - 03:56 am |       | Howdie Y'all.
Tis been awhile since I've written something on the ol' forum here, and I'll be surprised if any of you even remember me  But yes, onto the task at hand!
Elves... Do you think they are too much of a clich’e??? I've heard that some publishers wont even consider a story if anything like an elf, goblin, etc is mentioned. Is this true? Do people not like them in stories any more? My main character happens to be an elf, and there is alot of them in the story =/
Just tell me your opinions on the matter please
~Exzarius~
| Posted By: Cyrus Apr 23, 2003 - 06:11 am | | If publishers refused to consider stories with elves, they would miss out on a lot of great fiction. No, I do not think elves are cliche. They are an accepted and traditional part of fantasy. However, there are many conventions for the term elf. There are short elves and tall elves, mischievous and wise elves, most elves are thin and lithe, but the lists of veriety go on and on.
If you're worried about sounding cliche then you should do two things. One, consider your reason for feeling uncomfortable very very carefully. And two, try taking your vision of an elf and giving it another name, like Lithe. 
| Posted By: RongFo Apr 23, 2003 - 08:49 am | | Personally, I think if you're using elves (read as: following the conventions of elves), it's not a good idea to just call them something else.
That said, taking the elf archetype and trying something new with it can be a very cool thing. If, however, you're *just* following the conventions, they can read as trite and tried.
As an example from my current book: Fey creatures are magical predators with no more intelligence than dogs. Fairies enchant with magic songs and attack like flying piranha. Elves are mindless beauties who live by drinking body fluids (of any kind). Sprites and pixies are like little bloodsucking mosquitoes. This would all be just colorful background, but I also have a race of tall, beautiful humanoids with vestigial wings called the mor (culturally similar to the traditional elvish ideal). Terms like "elf" and "fairy" are used as racial slurs against the mor, who find the comparisons offensive and demeaning.
Not that I'm the authority or anything, but I think my example at least shows how I've thought about the elf archetype and try to avoid the implicit cliches.
RF
| Posted By: Sara Apr 28, 2003 - 05:43 pm | | Elves are creatures of Old Norse mythology, from the realm of Alfheim. Tolkien used Nordic myths as part of the basis for the races and places in Middle Earth (or Midgard in Norse myths). So see? Even Tolkien borrowed the idea.
You want to use Elves, use Elves. I use Elves in my series. They are NOT Tolkien's Elves, and I make that really clear through their language, customs, culture, the world they live in, etc.
I considered changing the name of the Elves to avoid the preconceived notion of Legolas/Galadriel, especially in light of the LOTR movies, but you know what? I decided not to. I found countless websites of countless published authors who have written countless books over countless years about Elves. All sorts of Elves. None of these Elves are like mine. Tolkien's Elves aren't like mine. They share physical characteristic in common with the residents of Alfheim as described in Nordic mythos and the rest is up to the writer -- their powers, abilities, lifespans, personalities, etc.
I say, use your Elves. Make them your own, something different and unique, and the rest takes care of itself.
I hope what you said about goblins isn't true, Exzarius! I love goblins -- not the "orkish" goblins of Middle-earth, but the Froud kind seen in the film "Labyrinth." Though they are but seldom seen in my book, they are an important race in my created world...
You should use elves. It's unique. Because i don't read alot of books with elves in them. So go right on ahead!
| Posted By: SirJill May 01, 2003 - 03:05 pm | | *smack herself in the head and tries not to bring up that there are no truly origial ideas*
I think that as long as you put your own spin on the concept of 'elves' then its fine.
| Posted By: Legolas Jun 13, 2003 - 04:53 am | | I think there should be more books out there that should have Trolls, Goblins, Orcs, and Beautiful Elves. J.R.R Tolkien was not the only one who wrote books about Elves Terry Brooks did also. He made Elves his own way and his own unique monsters and of course with Orcs and Goblins but he also made a whole new map of where the Elves lived like Tolkien and so far, today he got huge amount of good reviews and the best book.
So, use your Elves make up your own places, names and the description of the Elves make it your own.
Elves are an archetype, just like wizards. Is no-one else writing books about wizards since Harry Potter came out because they're afraid it might be similar?
| Posted By: Cole Jun 13, 2003 - 08:15 am | | Tad Williams used elf-like characters in his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series to good effect. They were called the Sithi.
Cole
.... and Sithi is, in and of itself, a take-off on the Gaelic sidhe, so even that wasn't new or invented.
If Williams' Sithi have that terrible/awesome thing going on, a good deal of battle frenzy, and a wish/need/want/drive/whatever to be Truly Heroic, that's entirely in the Sidhe ethos.
Filmchick, I think the problem one encounters when writing wizards is that the great Gandalf/Dumbledore cliche is difficult to get beyond. I think typically, fantasists focus too much on the "business" side of wizards, i.e. magic; the key to writing good wizards these days is, I think, extensive character development. You get that in Gandalf, but you have to go beyond the body of the novel of LotR to get it. I do not think there is that much character development in Dumbledore, but that's an uneducated guess on my part.
I seem to remember a Gandalf-like figure in the Dragonlance tales. "Paladine" was his name, or something similar. He was a pitiful imitation of Gandalf.
I don't use the term "wizard" much, or at all, in my own work. There is a Sorcerer and icemages, and other beings that utilize what we call magic; and there are of course charlatans and mountebanks, "peddlars of cheap tricks," if you will. But the term "wizard" seems loaded to me, if you get my meaning, perilous to use if the intent is not well-thought-out.
| Posted By: Cole Jun 17, 2003 - 01:36 pm | | ".... and Sithi is, in and of itself, a take-off on the Gaelic sidhe, so even that wasn't new or invented."
I can't say if it is or not. If you know for sure that's great. I haven't researched it.
"If Williams' Sithi have that terrible/awesome thing going on, a good deal of battle frenzy, and a wish/need/want/drive/whatever to be Truly Heroic, that's entirely in the Sidhe ethos."
No they didn't. So maybe they aren't patterned after the Sidhe.
Cole
I stand corrected. Just the name, then, that's taken from Gaelic. Sorry for jumping the gun - I just (wrongly) suspected I knew the source. 
| Posted By: Cole Jun 18, 2003 - 07:00 am | | Yeah the Sithi were actually protrayed as very peaceful, introspective, melancholy almost..they loved beauty and life but would fight if there was just cause. I didn't really see them as going into a battle frenzy - they just fought hard as anyone else would.
Perhaps the Norns (the "dark" Sithi if you will) perhaps could be classified as a little more barbaric. Even then however I don't think they were very different except in their mindset.
Thanks for the info on the Gaelic name!
Cole
| Posted By: Eleika Jun 20, 2003 - 12:32 pm | | Well, FC, it certainly does scare one off.
I was writing about a school for magic years before I even touched Harry Potter. I've conquered my fears, since I know it's different enough, but it is cause for at least a little concern.
If Star Wars hadn't been so big, would we think plots where the villain is the main character's parent were (as) overdone?
| Posted By: Aragorn Jun 26, 2003 - 09:37 am | | Hey which is a better Elf name for a female Elf? Legolen or Legolyn??
[Please do not double (or triple) post. One time for a question is enough. Bmat. Moderator]
NEITHER.
| Posted By: Eleika Jun 26, 2003 - 10:32 am | | To be blunt, it sounds like a direct rip-off from LOTR. And the only way you'd get away with using a name like that is if you were writing a parody, like Sir Apropos of Nothing.
Goblins are cool. I love the "labyrinth".
Go with whatever, elves, pixies, sprites the only thing i don't like are wizards. Mages are miles better. Good luck!
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