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Cliches!

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Postby aldan » Thu May 26, 2005 9:23 am

Please note that I refused to add any personal comment to my previous post here...
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Postby Neurolanis » Thu May 26, 2005 11:58 am

Aldan, you should be an English teacher!
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Postby Raye » Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:20 am

Oh thank you! for correcting the Heroin/ heroine thing. it was driving me crazy! I was about to say something too! lol.

ForeverZero raises a good point with the instant warrior, which i mostly agree with. but nuero, with explanation, yours would work too. remember that people sometimes get amazing strength and do some pretty unbelievable superhuman stuff when they have all that adrenaline pumping through their systems. its science. . .
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Postby Havoc » Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:27 pm

Cliches are cliches for just one reason: it works.

Yes, instant warriors might sound incredibly foolish they way you say it, but I often read a book where this instant warrior occurs and they almost always have a reason that ties in with the rest of the story.

As long as it is done in degrees, there's nothing wrong with a cliche. Don't let your farm boy beat a mighty warrior from day one, but let him try to defend his family as his village is attacked. Have him kill one of the soldiers that has it out for his family in a suprising way. Nothing fancy, but his first encounter with battle does show his natural aptitude with the sword.

I think that the most far-fetched and annoying cliche is that of the simple farm boy, who wants nothing but a simple life, who is destined to save the world, rule nations and be a hero for all times. All in the span of less than six months.

But again, this could work in a novel if done in degrees. He saves a village, rounds up the villagers and trains them to man at arms, together they protect other villages and slowly their numbers grow. William Wallace style.
It's the pacing mate.... PACING!!!
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Postby Magus » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:35 pm

I think that the most far-fetched and annoying cliche is that of the simple farm boy, who wants nothing but a simple life, who is destined to save the world, rule nations and be a hero for all times. All in the span of less than six months.


So do you not like Star Wars then?

:rofl:
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Postby Havoc » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:00 pm

With the exception that Skywalker doesn't want the simple life but wants to be a pilot.

As for the original trilogy, some acting was good, other acting was abysmal, sets and SFX were great. Script was rather predictable, though still crisp when it was written and released. Dialog is to laugh at really. It's interesting to have on DVD because it's a piece of movie-history, but it's not all it's cracked up to be.

I have yet to see Revenge of the Sith, but Episode 1 and 2 seemed to get by mostly on flashy fights and grand special effects. Neither of which are high on my list of criteria to good movies.

Question answered to your satisfaction? Good :) :P

I'd like to stress again that cliches are cliches because they work. Star Wars is a fine example of this, if you watch the special edition DVD with the documentary to the making off, you'll soon find George Lucas admitting virtually nothing was original. Most of his ideas (especially towards characters) were taken from mythologies across the world. Cliche through and through, and it worked as you might recall.
It's the pacing mate.... PACING!!!
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Postby Magus » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:02 am

Yeah, he admitted that Tatooine was based off of Arrakis, the Jedi off of Monks/Samurai among other things.
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Postby Havoc » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:07 am

You must have a completely different DVD than I do. On mine he admits to a LOT more. Namely that he read a book (I forget the name and author) that talks of all the similarities in all the myths of the world. Similarities between Gothic myths and Japanese legends, stories from the Aztecs and the Greeks etc. etc.

He used that book to create Star Wars, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia and every other character were based on sound archetypes. I believe the only truly original idea was the concept of the Force. (Though, thinking of it now you can trace Jedi Knights to Samurai as you can trace 'The Force' to 'Ki Energy' of Asian origin.)
It's the pacing mate.... PACING!!!
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Postby Magus » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:42 am

It wasn't a DVD, but an English book, and not mine at that.

But you said that cliches are just that because they work. That's somewhat true but not quite. I was reading a book and they talked about the differences between cliches and conventions and they said that cliches were unoriginal theft of ideas that worked and make no attempts to make something of it, using it only because it worked before. Conventions are using similar ideas from before or common tendencies along the lines of a median but working to make it different, to adapt it and change it so that it's not blatant copying, which a cliche would then be.
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Postby Havoc » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:31 pm

That's one way of looking at it.
It's the pacing mate.... PACING!!!
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Postby Manji » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:22 am

Yes, cliches work. However, you would still end up being an unoriginal hack.
Sure, maybe Lucas did rip a great deal off. The thing is, he did it in a way that people hadn't seen before. That's not cliche. That's innovation.
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Postby Havoc » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:09 pm

No, that's just pulling the wool over the audiences eyes and saying it's the most amazing and original thing around.

Don't get me wrong, I like cliches when people have come up with their own twist to it. I try to do the very same thing, but at least I don't try to pull it off as innovation, it's not. It's taking the old and giving it a brand new three-piece suit.
It's the pacing mate.... PACING!!!
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