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The Hadron Collider

"What would happen if...?" has always been a staple of Science Fiction. What do you wonder about?

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Re: The Hadron Collider

Postby waytanblee » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:12 am

They want to figure out what it was like at the big bang, but I predict that creation was more of a pluck out of nothingness than an explosion.
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Re: The Hadron Collider

Postby nightlock » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:32 am

Predicting the past? Now there's an idea!
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Re: The Hadron Collider

Postby Silvanus » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:10 am

Plus, if it was going to create a black hole, wouldn't the sun's rays hitting the earth's atmosphere make black holes... How dumb can these "SMART" scientists be if I can put that together... And me just being a lowly Engineering Student in my second year at the university.

Besides, it'd have to first create a really dense star and all these other stages that would take hundreds of thousands of years to advance through. Black hole, pshaw. The only way that we get sucked into a black hole is when the sun collapses, but we've got a loooong time before that happens.
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Re: The Hadron Collider

Postby nightlock » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:59 am

Silvanus wrote:Plus, if it was going to create a black hole, wouldn't the sun's rays hitting the earth's atmosphere make black holes... How dumb can these "SMART" scientists be if I can put that together... And me just being a lowly Engineering Student in my second year at the university.

Besides, it'd have to first create a really dense star and all these other stages that would take hundreds of thousands of years to advance through. Black hole, pshaw. The only way that we get sucked into a black hole is when the sun collapses, but we've got a loooong time before that happens.


The black holes are (theoretically) not created by one particle hitting another particle at the speed of light, it's (theoretically) created when two particles are each going at the more or less the speed of light and then have a full frontal head on collision. That doubles the speed at which they approach each other and thus the kinetic energy released. Particles from the sun hitting the earth will never reach that kinetic energy.

Also, there's more than one way to Rome, as the saying goes and the same could (theoretically) be true for black holes. A black hole is basically a whole lot of matter squeezed in a tiny space. As you might have noticed from car-crashes, head on collisions tend to impact both vehicles so their mass suddenly occupies a much smaller area (not counting all the glass shards that fly into people's eyes and permanently blind them) and the same might be true for these particles. Their head on collision might (theoretically) fuse their combined mass into a wee tiny space. Their mass to space ratio might (theoretically) approach that of black holes, thus creating a miniature black hole.

No, I am not a scientist, I have read a few books by Carl Sagan and the rest is pure logical extrapolation from my brain. Real scientists might have very different theories.
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Re: The Hadron Collider

Postby Silvanus » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:21 pm

nightlock wrote:The black holes are (theoretically) not created by one particle hitting another particle at the speed of light, it's (theoretically) created when two particles are each going at the more or less the speed of light and then have a full frontal head on collision. That doubles the speed at which they approach each other and thus the kinetic energy released. Particles from the sun hitting the earth will never reach that kinetic energy.

Also, there's more than one way to Rome, as the saying goes and the same could (theoretically) be true for black holes. A black hole is basically a whole lot of matter squeezed in a tiny space. As you might have noticed from car-crashes, head on collisions tend to impact both vehicles so their mass suddenly occupies a much smaller area (not counting all the glass shards that fly into people's eyes and permanently blind them) and the same might be true for these particles. Their head on collision might (theoretically) fuse their combined mass into a wee tiny space. Their mass to space ratio might (theoretically) approach that of black holes, thus creating a miniature black hole.

No, I am not a scientist, I have read a few books by Carl Sagan and the rest is pure logical extrapolation from my brain. Real scientists might have very different theories.


They are also (theoretically) not created by two particles smashing together at twice the speed of light. And I was just making an example for people without resorting to rays of photons shooting from a neutron star colliding with a like ray from another neutron star, where, ironically, we've always noticed that no black holes form.

Irregardless of if we accidentally created a black hole, due to its mass it's gravitational pull wouldn't be likely to cause any real problems, since it wouldn't be able to fight the earth's much stronger gravity. We could also likely as not contain it in a magnetic field (assuming it was stable enough to remain active) which (theoretically) would become a vaccuum and have to be contained in a reinforced container along with the magnetic field on the inside.

At any rate... The possibility that we create a black hole is immensely minute.
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They'll last for about as long as Q is lucid.

Postby Qray » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:04 pm

Silvanus wrote:Besides, it'd have to first create a really dense star and all these other stages that would take hundreds of thousands of years to advance through. Black hole, pshaw. The only way that we get sucked into a black hole is when the sun collapses, but we've got a loooong time before that happens.


Not to be a nit-picky *beep*, but our Sun lacks the mass to become a Black Hole. It'll turn into a Red Giant and then end it's days as a White Dwarf.

It's through quantum gravity effects on theoretical extra dimensions that might exist in our Universe other than those of space and time that the LHC could produce a black hole(s), or rather a mini-black hole(s). However, the mini-black hole(s) would have a high rate of decay and be extremely short lived. The suspected lifespan is a fraction of a second.

People in the know suspect the lawsuit against the LHC is nothing more than a publicity stunt.
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Re: They'll last for about as long as Q is lucid.

Postby Dark Knight » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:13 pm

Qray wrote: Not to be a nit-picky *beep*, but our Sun lacks the mass to become a Black Hole. It'll turn into a Red Giant and then end it's days as a White Dwarf.


Actually I believe that God will make all things new, way before then, and thus the Sun will be made new, which means that ether the Sun will be change, so that it will not end it's days, or it will be replace by a new Sun....
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Re: They'll last for about as long as Q is lucid.

Postby nightlock » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:21 pm

Qray wrote:It's through quantum gravity effects on theoretical extra dimensions that might exist in our Universe other than those of space and time that the LHC could produce a black hole(s), or rather a mini-black hole(s). However, the mini-black hole(s) would have a high rate of decay and be extremely short lived. The suspected lifespan is a fraction of a second.


I knew my logic would bring me nowhere.
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Oh for funks sake.

Postby Qray » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:27 pm

nightlock wrote:I knew my logic would bring me nowhere.


You take umbrage?

Dark Knight wrote:Actually I believe that God will make all things new, way before then, and thus the Sun will be made new, which means that ether the Sun will be change, so that it will not end it's days, or it will be replace by a new Sun....


I think it can be assumed that the intent of my comment was to be interpreted as :

"...barring any outside forces our Sun lacks the mass to become a Black Hole. It'll turn into a Red Giant and then end it's days as a White Dwarf..."

without having said content included.
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Re: The Hadron Collider

Postby Dark Knight » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:23 pm

If you had include that, I still would have said what I think will happen... because that is what I believe will happen to the Sun, even thou it is assumed to be an outside force. So not barring any outside forces that is what will happen...

[offtopic]Besides God is not an outside force, his spirit is through out the universe, and thus inside and outside of everything, thus he could be considered an inside force...and he is operating everything according to his will, so he is hardly acting as a some distant outside force[/offtopic]
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You've got to be kidding me.

Postby Qray » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:11 pm

Dark Knight wrote:If you had include that, I still would have said what I think will happen... because that is what I believe will happen to the Sun, even thou it is assumed to be an outside force. So not barring any outside forces that is what will happen...

[offtopic]Besides God is not an outside force, his spirit is through out the universe, and thus inside and outside of everything, thus he could be considered an inside force...and he is operating everything according to his will, so he is hardly acting as a some distant outside force[/offtopic]


The Universe he created doesn't require him to maintain it. If he would step in and refire the Sun, he would be acting as an outside force. Barring any force interrupting the natural lifespan of a star of the Sun's type, size, and mass, the star will turn into a Red Giant and then spend the rest of it's days as a White Dwarf.
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Re: The Hadron Collider

Postby nightlock » Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:21 am

The Nightlock would prefer we get back onto science and leave religion for other forums.

@Q: No, I do not take umbrage. As a supporter of the scientific method I much prefer to be corrected when I am wrong than not. I hadn't read to deeply in the Hadron Collider experiments and so I used my own logic to guess at the nature of these miniature black holes. Of course, logic takes no place in quantum physics :) which was what I was commenting on.
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