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Dragonfleet
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Post by Dragonfleet »

Merle wrote:Moreover, your PM was reelected. AUSTRALIA continues to offer military support in Iraq.
Unfortunately so but like the US election the opposition party's attempts to get governed was a complete disaster. Latham and Kerry were both fools imo and so was their marketing. Afterall both lost right?

Howard has stated that he won't be allevating the deployment of assets to the region. That can always change on the drop of a hat mind you but I think it's about time we focussed on the threat in our more immediate neighbourhood.

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Post by lastone »

Merle wrote:
lastone wrote: High Merle. I see that you have been watching Fox News again. And obviously missed the statement from the Pentagon that debunked Santorum’s attempt to arrest his failing poll numbers.
Nope, sober as can be, old friend.
Who mentioned anything about drink. Debunked means disproved.

More information that Fox news did not tell you. The abandoned weapons cache was discovered near the Iran and Iraq boarder. Indications are, due to the extent of degradation of the chemicals that the ammunition was part of an ammunition dump buried at the time of the Iran Iraq war. I am sure too that if you search that border that you will also find more abandoned ordinance.

The attempt to argue that these are firstly WMD and secondly indicative of an advance chemical weapons program are laughable and indicative of desperation. The argument that these weapons could be sold is also tickling the old funny bone. From the declassified report.

http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/NEGRPONTELETTER.pdf
Since 2003 coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions, which contain degraded mustard or Sarin nerve agent.
Over a period of time chemicals agents lose their potency degrade lose their effectiveness. So in the case of Artillery shells with chemical agents the shell goes boom but the gas does not work. Mustard gas has never been considered a WMD. It is far more likely to injure than kill. But I digress. The report describes these weapons as degraded. Now if you can sell a terrorist organization degraded weapons that do not work, I know of a bridge in Brooklyn that they might be interested in.

The long and the short of it is that they found an abandoned and forgotten ammo dump from the Iran and Iraq war. I for one do not think that this discovery is worth the life of one American serviceman or women let alone 2500. Interestingly they are still finding unexploded ordinance in the Area round the Somme. While you and Dragonfleet mention that our Prime Minister supports the war I should point out that I did not vote for him. Further I concede the mistakes of Latham in the campaign. One major mistake was not making Iraq and issue.

As to lies, we must agree to disagree. I believe that Bush always intended to go to war with Iraq and created the circumstances that lead to it. You believe that he was mislead my the intelligence community.
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Post by lastone »

... There was never any question Iraq once had weapons of mass destruction programs. Nor was the world naïve enough to trust Saddam Hussein not to try and hide such weapons from UN inspectors. The rationale for the U.S. invasion, however, was that after a decade of sanctions, war, U.S. bombing runs, and UN inspections, Iraq still possessed a viable nuclear, chemical or biological threat that could be deployed beyond Iraq’s borders or which was in danger of being supplied to terrorist groups.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no basis for this argument, made so forcefully by Secretary of State Colin Powell at the United Nations, when he claimed to possess clear evidence that huge stocks of everything from sarin gas to anthrax to sanction-violating missiles were stored in Iraq, ready for use...

According to Scott Ritter, former UN Iraqi weapons inspector , the chemical weapons which Iraq has been known to possess -- nerve agents like sarin and tabun -- have a shelf life of five years, VX just a bit longer. Saddam's major bio weapons are hardly any better; botulinum toxin is potent for about three years, and liquid anthrax about the same (under the right conditions). And he adds that since all chemical weapons were made in Iraq's only chemical weapons complex – the Muthanna State establishment, which was blown up during the first Gulf War in 1991 -- and all biological weapons plants and research papers were clearly destroyed by 1998, any remaining bio/chemical weapons stores are now "harmless, useless goo."

... But the truth of the matter is that Iraq’s WMD may have even less of a shelf life than Ritter now claims -- and the U.S. government knows it.

The U.S. Defense Department’s “Militarily Critical Technologies List” (MCTL) is “a detailed compendium of technologies" that the department advocates as “critical to maintaining superior US military capabilities. It applies to all mission areas, especially counter-proliferation.” Written in 1998, it was recently re-published with updates for 2002.

So what is the MCTL’s opinion of Iraq's chemical weapons program? In making its chemical nerve agents, “The Iraqis . . . produce[d] a . . . mixture which was inherently unstable,” says the report. “When the Iraqis produced chemical munitions they appeared to adhere to a ‘make and use’ regimen. Judging by the information Iraq gave the United Nations, later verified by on-site inspections, Iraq had poor product quality for their nerve agents. This low quality was likely due to a lack of purification. They had to get the agent to the front promptly or have it degrade in the munition.”

Furthermore, says this Defense Department report, “The chemical munitions found in Iraq after the [first] Gulf War contained badly deteriorated agents and a significant proportion were visibly leaking.” The shelf life of these poorly made agents were said to be a few weeks at best -- hardly the stuff of vast chemical weapons stores.


There was some talk shortly before the first Gulf War that the Iraqis had been creating binary chemical weapons, in which the relatively non-toxic ingredients of the agent remain unmixed until just before the weapon is used; this allows the user to bypass any worry about shelf life or toxicity. But according to the MCTL, “The Iraqis had a small number of bastardized binary munitions in which some unfortunate individual was to pour one ingredient into the other from a Jerry can prior to use” -- an action few soldiers were willing to perform.

Iraq did produce mustard gas that was somewhat more stable than the nerve agents. It may have a longer shelf life; perhaps potent forms of this agent could still be found. But one must wonder how worried we should be about Iraq’s poorly-made agents, several years after their production...

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Post by Merle »

Chum, you said "High" Merle. Just kidding you about your typo.

Lastone, firstly I never linked to the Fox article about the sarin and mustard shells. Secondly, I linked to the article without comment, and the article clearly stated that these were not the WMDs we thought Saddam had. I did later highlight the portions of the the article which demonstrated the danger these weapons could pose. So I haven't attempted to mislead anyone. Again, you've beaten a straw man to death. Frankly, I don't think this discussion is worth the life of a single straw man, and I intend to bring this up in the World Court. ;)

Edited to add: Go make a decent post in the PATD, ya slacker. We're tired of carrying your cardboard cutout all over the place!
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Post by Merle »

Dragonfleet wrote:
Merle wrote:Moreover, your PM was reelected. AUSTRALIA continues to offer military support in Iraq.
Unfortunately so but like the US election the opposition party's attempts to get governed was a complete disaster. Latham and Kerry were both fools imo and so was their marketing. Afterall both lost right?

Howard has stated that he won't be allevating the deployment of assets to the region. That can always change on the drop of a hat mind you but I think it's about time we focussed on the threat in our more immediate neighbourhood.
Dragonfleet, you are definitely right about that. Kerry's campaign was a disaster. I think that stems from the candidate himself, who really isn't terribly bright, and can't seem to make up his mind about anything.
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Post by lastone »

High merle

No quite sober actually. Okay now I get it. There I was thinking you were focused on debunked. I blame it on low blood sugars. Forgive my taking literary license and bringing in Santorum and Fox News. Since this issue all started with a news conference by Santorum on fox news. I figured if I could assist in his self-destruction on this issue it’s a win win situation. Besides I like you. Santorum I can insult.
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Post by lastone »

Now if I might be permitted to raise a differant topic. :D Image
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (June 26) - Rush Limbaugh was detained for about three-and-a-half hours Monday at Palm Beach International Airport after authorities said they found a bottle of Viagra in his possession without a prescription.


The 55-year-old radio commentator's luggage was examined by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement after his private plane landed at the airport around 2 p.m. from the Dominican Republic, said Paul Miller, spokesman for the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office.


ICE officials found in Limbaugh's luggage a prescription bottle labeled as Viagra, a prescription drug that treats erectile disfunction, Miller said.


"The problem was that on the bottle itself was not his name, but the name of two Florida doctors," Miller said.


The matter was turned over to the sheriff's office, whose investigators interviewed Limbaugh.


"He said he had the Viagra in his possession for his use and that he did obtain it from his doctors," Miller said.


Sheriff's investigators confiscated the drugs, and Limbaugh was released around 5:30 p.m. without being charged.


However, the sheriff's office plans to file a report with the state attorney's office.


"We believe there may be a second degree misdemeanor violation, which is possession of certain drugs without a prescription, because the bottle does not have his name on it," Miller said.


A doctor had prescribed the drug, but it was "labeled as being issued to the physician rather than Mr. Limbaugh for privacy purposes," Roy Black, Limbaugh's attorney, said in a statement.


Last month, Limbaugh reached a deal with prosecutors who had accused the conservative talk-show host of illegally deceiving multiple doctors to receive overlapping pain pill prescriptions. Under the deal, a single charge commonly referred to as "doctor shopping" would be dismissed after 18 months if he complies with terms that include submitting to random drug tests and continuing treatment for his acknowledged addiction to painkillers.
Now I don’t usually laugh at other people’s misfortunes, in this case there is a poetic justice. Rush is a moral’s campaigner, and is also currently not married. So one has to ask why does he need Viagra? The ultimate irony, here is a man that has just ended his third marriage and is currently engaged for a fourth attempt while at the same time using Viagra and he argues that gay marriage will ruin the sanctity of marriage.
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Post by MrB »

Condeleezza has come out and said that the US, Afghanistan and Pakistan (and I would add the UK, there are British troops there after all) would defeat "ruthless, determined enemies" in Afghanistan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5123648.stm

I wonder what makes her think this when Soviet troops spent ten years in that country and they couldn't manage it, in fact I remember reading somewhere they were "soundly beaten"...

comments anyone ?
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Post by Merle »

lastone wrote:Now if I might be permitted to raise a differant topic. :D Image
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (June 26) - Rush Limbaugh was detained for about three-and-a-half hours Monday at Palm Beach International Airport after authorities said they found a bottle of Viagra in his possession without a prescription.


The 55-year-old radio commentator's luggage was examined by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement after his private plane landed at the airport around 2 p.m. from the Dominican Republic, said Paul Miller, spokesman for the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office.


ICE officials found in Limbaugh's luggage a prescription bottle labeled as Viagra, a prescription drug that treats erectile disfunction, Miller said.


"The problem was that on the bottle itself was not his name, but the name of two Florida doctors," Miller said.


The matter was turned over to the sheriff's office, whose investigators interviewed Limbaugh.


"He said he had the Viagra in his possession for his use and that he did obtain it from his doctors," Miller said.


Sheriff's investigators confiscated the drugs, and Limbaugh was released around 5:30 p.m. without being charged.


However, the sheriff's office plans to file a report with the state attorney's office.


"We believe there may be a second degree misdemeanor violation, which is possession of certain drugs without a prescription, because the bottle does not have his name on it," Miller said.


A doctor had prescribed the drug, but it was "labeled as being issued to the physician rather than Mr. Limbaugh for privacy purposes," Roy Black, Limbaugh's attorney, said in a statement.


Last month, Limbaugh reached a deal with prosecutors who had accused the conservative talk-show host of illegally deceiving multiple doctors to receive overlapping pain pill prescriptions. Under the deal, a single charge commonly referred to as "doctor shopping" would be dismissed after 18 months if he complies with terms that include submitting to random drug tests and continuing treatment for his acknowledged addiction to painkillers.
Now I don’t usually laugh at other people’s misfortunes, in this case there is a poetic justice. Rush is a moral’s campaigner, and is also currently not married. So one has to ask why does he need Viagra? The ultimate irony, here is a man that has just ended his third marriage and is currently engaged for a fourth attempt while at the same time using Viagra and he argues that gay marriage will ruin the sanctity of marriage.
Rush had a couple of one-liners on his show yesterday. "What I want to know is how the hell Bob Dole's luggage got on my airplane?" Then he quipped that he'd gotten the pills at the Clinton Library, but no one would believe him. Trying to put as brave a face as possible on what is obviously a very embarrassing situation.
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Post by Merle »

MrB wrote:Condeleezza has come out and said that the US, Afghanistan and Pakistan (and I would add the UK, there are British troops there after all) would defeat "ruthless, determined enemies" in Afghanistan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5123648.stm

I wonder what makes her think this when Soviet troops spent ten years in that country and they couldn't manage it, in fact I remember reading somewhere they were "soundly beaten"...

comments anyone ?
I think there is a difference here, as opposed to the Soviet situation. The Soviets basically conquered Afghanistan, and the Afghans could unite to repulse the common enemy. In the current situation, Afghans are fighting alongside the Coalition troops to defeat the Taliban and Al Qaeda remnants. So the country is not united against a foreign invader this time.
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Post by lastone »

Found this on the web, some might think its funny.

http://www.wiseass.org/html/content-jesus.html
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Post by aldan »

And then, of course, you have the wonderful set of missile launches that North Korea made in was appears very strongly to be an attempt to provoke the US and Japan...

First, launching more than one on the same day is not really test-launching, in that with test-launching, you will launch one, then run a myriad of tests to see what worked as it should have and what did not, and then find out why the stuff that didn't, did not work properly. Second, did you note the fact that they were launched at a time when in the United States, they'd be celebrating their Independence Day? Third, they launched them toward the island of Hokkaido, Japan.

That's not all, I'm sure, but those are the points at which I'd like to point for now.
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