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Dragonfleet
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Post by Dragonfleet »

Magus wrote:Wow... I just read what that one person said about the Holocaust and the Deportation of Hispanics. Wow. That has to be one of the worst things I've ever heard somebody say. I won't say THE worst, because I've heard a few even worse than that, but it ranks up there.
Indeed, it's pretty terrible. Just look at Australia's immigration policy and the way we've been handling asylum seekers. Look at the detention centres we stick them in or some far off island we dump them. And we wonder why a lot of international watchdogs are giving us the thumbs down in relation to upholding human rights. :roll:

I love when I can take real life issues like this and play around with it in a science fiction context. :)

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Post by Dark Knight »

Qray wrote:
Dark Knight wrote:Water can have it's problems.....we have dams in New Zealand.....but sometimes we have problems with Low Lake levels...

It happens when it does not rain, the lake goes down, hence less water to go through the dam to make power....resulting in high power prices....and power shortages
We experience the same things here in Wisconsin with our dams, but like I said, most of ours aren't producing electricity any longer so we don't see the effects. You said you have problems with Low Lake levels, how does this effect your electricity supply? Do you guys have brown outs or black outs as a result?
No not usually, usually there are warnings in the paper, the price goes up as the level goes down. We are told to save power.....then it in the end it rains and we are alright again...

We have had problems in the past, but we now have more geothermal power than back then.....
One of the problems in building new dams is that it can drastically change the ecology of the river.
One of the problems is that fish have problems getting up and downstream

Also since the water level is higher than it was, any houses built along the river will need to be reloacted, or will be flooded.....

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Post by Dark Knight »

We are currently have a problem with underage drinking in NZ....

Someone has come up with a most interesting idea to solve the problem.....>>>>>>

Make it illegal to sell Alcohol to someone under 20....

However it would still be legal for someone under 20 to buy Alcohol....one wonders from where??? :?

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Post by lastone »

Something To think about

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism
by Lawrence Britt
Spring 2003
Free Inquiry magazine

Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism


Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Copyright © 2003 Free Inquiry magazine
Now have a look here
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
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Post by Qray »

Dark Knight wrote:We have had problems in the past, but we now have more geothermal power than back then.....
How is geothermal power working for you guys? I assume they use the heat to turn turbines to generate electricity? Is it fairly efficient? How much electricity do you guys get from geothermal energy?
Dark Knight wrote:
Qray wrote:One of the problems in building new dams is that it can drastically change the ecology of the river.
One of the problems is that fish have problems getting up and downstream...
There are solutions though, some dams spill water over the dams at critical times to speed downstream migration, install screens and bypass systems to divert fish away from turbines, transport juvenile salmon downstream in barges to avoid killing fish at each dam and to speed their trip downstream, and lower the water level behind some dams to the top of the spillway.

In some new dam designs, there are also "steps" built into the damn that allow the fish to get over the dam and still spawn.

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Post by Merle »

Well, here's some inconvenient news.....

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/2 ... 4imol.html
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Post by Dark Knight »

Qray wrote:
Dark Knight wrote:We have had problems in the past, but we now have more geothermal power than back then.....
How is geothermal power working for you guys? I assume they use the heat to turn turbines to generate electricity? Is it fairly efficient? How much electricity do you guys get from geothermal energy?
Yes it is fairly efficient

We get about 7% from Geothermal energy.....

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Post by lastone »

Merle wrote:Well, here's some inconvenient news.....

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/2 ... 4imol.html
High Merle. I see that you have been watching Fox News again. And obviously missed the statement from the Pentagon that debunked Santorum’s attempt to arrest his failing poll numbers.
"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

You might be interested in this response on another board. He says it better than I can and saves me so much typing
hunkafunk wrote:
willzo wrote:Read it a weep! This wasn't printed up in the Fox news studio.

Maybe the bigger story is the deep denial the MSM and the libs here are falling into.

http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/NEGRPONTELETTER.pdf

Ummmm...I read the document. Still waiting for the tears to well up.

So I read:

"Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the black market."

MY GOD! THE WMD'S HAVE BEEN FOUND!

huh?

"Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons" is Honduran Death Squad Negroponte's euphemism for "chemical weapons we gave Saddam during the Reagan administration."

Trying to conflate the term "Pre Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons" with Weapons of Mass Destruction is a desperate ploy to save face.

It's like when Bush changed his terminology back in the day to soften his shrill rhetoric from 'reconstituted nuclear weapons program' to 'WMD-related program activities" when it was obvious the threat just wasn't there.



SO we look at Bush quotes on WMD's leading up to his invasion of Iraq:
"Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof - the smoking gun - that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud,"
Unusable chemical munitions that Reagan sold Saddam in the 80's were not "clear evidence of peril". Degraded mustard gas does not cause a "mushroom cloud".
"Saddam Hussein . . . is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon,"
Ah, there's the WMD's. Too bad there was no program to develop nuclear weapons. Now, if this information were uncovered that would be something.
"The regime . . . has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda. The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other."
Again, lies. Zarqawi was the only connection. Saddam repeatedly resisted the overtures of Al Qaeda. Zarqawi was operating in an area well outside Saddam's iron fisted, O'Reilly endorsed, control (read recent statements where he just loves how Saddam controlled Iraq).
"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."
From Bush's own mouth. The WMD's were NUCLEAR WEAPONS. The urgent fear was the potential of Iraq to give Al Qaeda NUCLEAR WEAPONS. The smoking gun is a MUSHROOM CLOUD. Iraq had no connection with Al Qaeda. No evidence of Iraq trying to buy aluminum tubes that could be used for centrifuge. Iraq had no nuclear weapons program of any substance. And you righties whine and *beep* that Fox News again repeated the existence of pre-gulf war chemical weapons which Reagan sold to Saddam as some sort of vindication? Excuse me as I snort milk out of my nose.

As Judge Judy would say, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining." We knew he had some nasty weapons left over from Reagan's garage sale. They were not WMD's. That was not the imminent danger that we dedicated thousands of American lives, spent hundreds of billions of dollars, and killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children for.

Chemical and biological weapons were used repeatedly in the mantra leading up to Bush's Iraq invasion, not because they truly were the WMD's that presented an immediate threat, but because they bolstered and buttressed the point the Bushies were trying to make. They were yet another piece of "evidence" to pile on. It was the "everything and the kitchen sink" technique, throwing anything they could out there that created suspicion and supported the fact that Saddam was a bad, mean man. They conflated chemical and biological weapons with WMD's, not because they actually are, but because it was politically expedient and much easier to prove Saddam had these weapons. Since the conservatives gave them to him. So through simple repitition, the more gullible bought the line that chemical and bio weaponry were somehow the WMD's in question. They were not. It was the threat of Saddam getting nuclear weapons and giving them to our terrorist enemies, Bush's claim Saddam had an "active program to acquire and develop nuclear weapons." End of story. Turns out to be false. Deal with it.

The minute evidence they did find was not remotely close to the claims Bush made. If you recall, he said Saddam had VX, sarin, cyclosarin, smallpox, anthrax, botulism...

The American people certainly would not have supported going to war if Bush had framed the issue honestly. "Well, my daddy might have helped Saddam get nasty chemical and biological weapons back in the 80's, and even though there's no real connection between Iraq and the terrorists of 9/11, and thus no imminent threat to us due to this lack of such a connection, we better take Saddam out just in case. Oh and he might someday get WMD's. And by that I mean nuclear weapons. But no proof of a connection between him and the terrorists any more than Kim Jong Ill or the leaders of Pakistan, both of whom already have nuclear weapons they could give to the Al Qaeda." But that would have been an honest framing of the issue. Can't have that. No sirree.

It reminds me of Deal or No Deal, where the contestant is doing all they can, everything in their power to go for the big money, the million dollars, but as the game progresses and it's turning out that they played the game incompetently, seeing 300,000 slip out of their hands for 100,000, seeing that disappear and replaced with 50,000, and that dwindling to a measly 2,000, and then finally settling for the 10,000 offer which isn't quite near the One Million they'd hoped for. Then they have to put on their game face and claim they're satisfied with the 10 grand. That's what conservatives and the Bush administration are doing right now with WMD's. Having failed, they'll take what they can get.
Also

Santorum’s WMD claim is pummeled again
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countd ... um-WMD.wmv
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Post by Merle »

And another inconvenient bit of news....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200908,00.html
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Post by Merle »

From the WMD story:

The intelligence overview published Wednesday stressed that the pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the black market.

"Use of these weapons by terrorists or insurgent groups would have implications for coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside Iraq cannot be ruled out," it said.


And this:

Last year the head of Iraq Survey Group, Charles Duelfer, said that insurgents in Iraq had already used old chemical weapons in their attacks.

Nevertheless, "the impression that the Iraqi Survey Group left with the American people was they didn't find anything," Hoekstra said.

"But this says: Weapons have been discovered; more weapons exist. And they state that Iraq was not a WMD-free zone, that there are continuing threats from the materials that are or may still be in Iraq," he said.

Asked just how dangerous the weapons are, Hoekstra said: "One or two of these shells, the materials inside of these, transferred outside of the country, can be very, very deadly."

The report said that the purity of the chemical agents -- and thus their potency -- depends on "many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives, and environmental storage conditions."

"While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal," it said.


Couple that with the story of Iraqui cooperation with terrorists, story in previous post, and I'd say that's a pretty serious threat.

Lastone, you ain't never gonna get it. Ever. How can it be a "lie" if every intelligence service on the planet thought Saddam had WMDs? It may have turned out to be wrong, that doesn't make it a lie. For instance, I tell someone Lastone has a Mazaratti. That someone repeats it. Lastone doesn't have a Mazaratti. Is the someone who repeated what I said lying? No, because he didn't know it was false when he said it. I guess Tony Blair was in on the lie as well, eh? And President Clinton in 1998, who ratcheted up for war, and shot every cruise missile we owned at Iraq, based on his statements that Iraq had WMDs. Read President Clinton's address here: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/ ... inton.html He really was quite eloquent. You will also note that the Iraq Survey Group concluded that Iraq didn't have a WMD program in 1998, either. So Clinton lied. Right?

Additionally,what the discovery of all these Sarin and Mustard gas shells demonstrates is the futility of UN inspections. These munitions existed prior to the Gulf War, and inspectors never found them. Worthless.

Lastone, the UN authorized any member state to take military action against Iraq, in at least three separate resolutions, if Iraq didn't comply with UN sanctions. Iraq didn't comply, and the US, UK, and AUSTRALIA took military action. Moreover, your PM was reelected. AUSTRALIA continues to offer military support in Iraq.
Last edited by Merle on Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Merle »

And how not to conduct foreign policy with fascist militant jihadist states:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008563
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Post by Merle »

lastone wrote: High Merle. I see that you have been watching Fox News again. And obviously missed the statement from the Pentagon that debunked Santorum’s attempt to arrest his failing poll numbers.
Nope, sober as can be, old friend.
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