Beliefs, is there a right or wrong way?

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Believer
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Post by Believer »

Yes clknaps, i have heard of that before, yet its the path getting there is not always the easiest with the different religions fighting to convert you
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Post by Llew »

My two bits worth.

First off, I'm not going to claim any kind of understanding of the deeper matters of faith, the bible and spirituality.

I've heard a wise theologian say that, "Life is a gamble. You are either betting A, that God exists and that he has the will and the power to do what he says, or B, that God does not exist. And we are betting our souls for eternity here, and no matter what we say, we all have chosen. It is shown by the way we live and don't live."

That may sound raw, but it is just so true. Everyone has made there 'choice' and are going to bet their souls on it.

The reason I said 'choice' is because I believe in predestination, i.e. that God has chosen the ones he is going to save sense the beginning of time.

As a side note, this verse (and others) is why:
Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.


And simply the fact that it scares the 'hell' out of me to think that God does not know what going to happen, i.e. has no control over it.
Sorry, I believe in God, but being in fire hurts like hell and to purposely put someone there is rather harsh, cruel and unacceptable. Say someone does go to that lake of fire, obviously he/she will change their ways. They were Forced into it. I don't get it.
-Ariel

I understand your point of view and I know how you feel. But I believe God will do what he said, and even if I don't understand what he means, I have to trust him that he knows what he is doing. The thing is, the very nature of all mankind is sinful. Sense the beginning mankind has been a fallen race, and God would be and is, infinitely justified in condemning us all to eternal damnation, just because of our sinful nature. But he made a way for us to be saved. An awesome way.

And there will be some who say, "Not Fair!"

Well, did anyone say it was?
Yes Good will purposely put someone there, because he loves them, he knows that he must correct their ways, before they can come home….have you not heard of rehabilitation…???
That is generally know as Purgatory. The Church invented it because they needed money. That is one of the reasons they were so angry with Luther, because he was telling the people about their frauds.

And now I really should conk out and go the bed :)
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Post by MrB »

To be honest, I've kind of given up on the whole God thing, I used to believe that God categorically existed, and no one would tell me otherwise... The problem I discovered with belief in God, was that I became terrified of dying, and thus I felt as though sometimes I wasn't really living.. vagues as that may seem...

Now, I don't care whether he/she exists or not, and in fact I worry less about death, which was a massive weight of my mind.

Now as regards DK's blog... We have had some excellent discussions, and our opinions differ widely, and although I think you are a jolly nice chap, I doubt we would ever agree on religion, but back to the point of your blog, it's great, very informative, and detailed... but, and don't take this the wrong way, it is a bit preachy ! :wink:
You can't dangle the bogus carrot of possible reconciliation in front of my face whilst riding some other donkey.

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Post by Llew »

hmm....DK's blog...he uses question marks like this:
????? which turned me off right away... :lol:
seriously though, it's a pet peeve of mine, can't stand it when they do it.

But anyway, about his whole claim that Aion is used in a bunch of different ways. First I have to say that, unless you know the original Greek, it would be hard to say exactly how it is used wrongly. Even English words are used like that, the same word being use the describe both extremes. And if your first assumption is wrong, your whole theory is naturally going to be skewed.
It has been translated into eight different words in the King James Version: ‘Ages’ twice; ‘Ever’ 30 times ; ‘Ever and Ever’ 21 times; World’ 35 times; ‘Worlds’ twice; ‘Course’ once; ‘Eternal’ twice; and ‘End’ once.
Interesting. But I noticed that all those words have the same context, the same feel if you will. They all are talking about the same sort of thing.
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Post by Ariel »

So in essence, if someone is not christain, then all other belief systems are wrong? If someone is catholic or Buddhist or whatever, then all other religions different from theirs is wrong?

Human beings are not perfect and can't expect to be. The best we can do is be the best that we can be. To live a good life and to live by example.

Where I am employed, we have different cultures and different belief systems. One Spanish lady made me laugh when she told an African his God was crazy. He laughed too. We have all learned to respect each others beliefs, even if we don't believe the same things. We are all good human beings who enjoy each others company and realize that deep down inside we really arn't that different at all.

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Post by Llew »

Ariel wrote:So in essence, if someone is not christain, then all other belief systems are wrong? If someone is catholic or Buddhist or whatever, then all other religions different from theirs is wrong?
Thats up to God. I'm not going to say what is right or wrong, and I'm defiantly not going to try to convert them (not until we're friends anyway :wink: ). I just know what I believe and I shall respect all others, and keep an open mind.

I was just talking to someone yesterday about what I believe. (he isn't a Christian) We were both being open minded even though we aren't planning on changing, and over all it was quite enjoyable.
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Post by Dark Knight »

Believer wrote:I have read everything yall said, and I understand, what about the balance? We all know that the Devil is evil and betraying, but what of the fallen angels and such, they go to hell for they are no longer welcome in heaven. The Devil has his way getting people and keeping them, even with that persons consent. God put us on this earth to choose, and if they for some unknown reason, choose Satan, then that is their choice and they will go and be with him in hell
DK: You have read everything? All I have said in my blog? Do you understand?

What balance? I believe everyone will be save good, bad, ugly.. And those that follow Satan....

The fallen Angels and the Devil go to the Lake of Fire!!! Not Hell….

Here they get divine cleansing and then they too go to Heaven…There is no Hell….That Is my believe...

From my Blog:

Level 2:
This is the believe that all Demons will also be reconciled to God. Under this view God not only Loves all people, but he also Loves all the Angels and demons out there.


From “The Total Love of God” 12 October 2006….

God did not put us here to choose…. That was not it at all…. How did a dead baby choose…??? Millions die before they ever get the chance to grow up, how do they choose???? Or does God choose for them?????
clknaps wrote:In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans will be saved from eternal damnation or annihilation in hell. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels.
It is actually not about being saved from Hell, since there is not actually a Hell…and there never was…Saved form death yes…. The penalty for sin is death… God will raise the dead, and give them life…God create all, and he did not create this myth of a place called Hell….

God said the penalty for eating from the Tree of Knowledge was Death.

Apokatastasis sounds closer to what I believe, but I have not heard of it………Different Christian Universalists believe different things…Some just believe people will be saved, others go further, like I do and believe that God will also reconcile Satan and his fallen angels to him … It is the same in any believe it seems….

The lake of fire is a process God uses to reconcile people to him and to reconcile Satan and his fallen angels to him…

And some like me believe that the Animals will also be raised from the dead…..
Llew wrote:The reason I said 'choice' is because I believe in predestination, i.e. that God has chosen the ones he is going to save sense the beginning of time.
If God chose the ones, then how is that choice on the persons part? I do believe that God has choice some in this live to be save now… the rest will be save later…. This being God’s choice, not ours….
Llew wrote:But anyway, about his whole claim that Aion is used in a bunch of different ways. First I have to say that, unless you know the original Greek, it would be hard to say exactly how it is used wrongly.
And if your first assumption is wrong, your whole theory is naturally going to be skewed.
It has been translated into eight different words in the King James Version: ‘Ages’ twice; ‘Ever’ 30 times ; ‘Ever and Ever’ 21 times; World’ 35 times; ‘Worlds’ twice; ‘Course’ once; ‘Eternal’ twice; and ‘End’ once.


Interesting. But I noticed that all those words have the same context, the same feel if you will. They all are talking about the same sort of thing.
There are many Bibles that use the word Age or Eon Weymouth’s, the Emphatic Diaglott, the American Revised Version, Goodspeed’s, Youngs and others, and the Concordant Version uses Eon…

The Concordant Version is a translation of the Greek..

I disagree, world does not to me have the same feel as Age… The world is not a period of time, it is a planet!

I do believe Eon or Eons are the correct words to use....

The record shows that, the Latin Fathers, led by Jerome who gave us the Latin Vulgate, began this departure from the original; and in the year 696 at Constantinople, a council of the Church publicly condemned this doctrine of the eons, as proclaimed by Origen as, “drunken ravings as to the future life of the dead.”
from blog....

These wrong assumptions lead to the wrong believes we have today….

Old English versions were not made from the Greek, but from the Latin Vulgate, between the years 680 and 995. John Wyclif was probably the first person to translate the whole Bible into the English tongue. He was born about 1320, commenced translating 1356 and finished the entire Bible in 1382; two years later he died. He was a true scholar, a bitter opponent to the Roman Church’s claims, and while he was in the University at Prague, John Huss came under his influence, and was burned at the stake in 1415 for the faith. The Latin Vulgate version dominated Europe for centuries until Wyclif’s time, no one seems to have thought of a Greek original, perhaps, because Latin had taken the place of Greek as the universal language of courts, clergy, and scholars. Wyclif was true to the original, but one hundred and fifty years after, Tyndale led the group of translators who departed from the original, and followed Jerome and the Latin Vulgate. Coverdale’s (1535)) Crammer’s (1539)) the Genevan (1557) and the Rheims (1582) down to the Authorized Version of 1611. Never once does Wyclif use the expression, “forever,” or “for ever and ever ,” and he never uses the word “eternal.” Tyndale’s version followed Wyclif’s and it is here for the first time published in English, we find the words, ‘for ever,’ ‘for ever and ever,’ ‘for evermore,’ etc.

Form http://home.hawaii.rr.com/graceuniversa ... 0Times.htm

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Post by Llew »

Dark Knight wrote: If God chose the ones, then how is that choice on the persons part? I do believe that God has choice some in this live to be save now… the rest will be save later…. This being God’s choice, not ours….
If thats so, whats the point? why don't we all go out and live the worst way we can, sense we are all going to be saved in the end?

About predestination, these verses and more are way I believe that;

(Rev 13:8) and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

(Rev 17:8) The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

(Rev 20:15) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You'll notice the parts I mean.
It is actually not about being saved from Hell, since there is not actually a Hell…and there never was

Then what is the point?

My whole point is, there must be a bad that we have to conquer in order for any sort of reward to be sweet and desirable.
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Post by Ariel »

Speaking of bad. How can God allow children, or anyone for that matter to starve? Or allow the horrors of torture? That always bugs the heck out of me.

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Post by Llew »

Ariel wrote:Speaking of bad. How can God allow children, or anyone for that matter to starve? Or allow the horrors of torture? That always bugs the heck out of me.
I really don't know. :cry: I suppose their reward will be great in heaven.
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Post by Magus »

So.....

***rubs hands together***

What'd I miss?

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Post by Dark Knight »

{Please note "8 )" without the space produces the 8) emoticon that’s why I try to remember the space….It is (Rev 13:8 ) you mean, right.. }

Yes Llew I know the parts you mean, but just because some are predestine, it does not mean the rest are not saved.

That’s why I believe some are predestine to be saved now, the rest later…..

Llew wrote:
Dark Knight wrote:If God chose the ones, then how is that choice on the persons part? I do believe that God has choice some in this live to be save now… the rest will be save later…. This being God’s choice, not ours….

If thats so, whats the point? why don't we all go out and live the worst way we can, sense we are all going to be saved in the end?
The lake of Fire is no picnic in the park, the bible mentions being tormented. There are also degrees of punishment, as it mentions STRIPES.

Also everyone is not saved at the same time, is it not better to be in the first group?, The first to experience the heavenly treasure? The first to know God?

This is what I said in another forum that is no longer running:
But if everyone is to be saved then why believe?, why study the bible?

To get to heaven first….be part of the first group…and to know Christ now…..

That's what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. The son who stayed home said to his father "I stuck around here all these years with you and didn't go out and have "fun" like my brother (who, of course, ended up living with the pigs! Some fun!) "And you're giving my brother the same reward you're giving me (son-ship) plus you're giving him a big "welcome home" party. I'm upset!!"

And the father replies "Hasn't it been better to be here with me all this time? If you don't think there's any advantage to being with me NOW - EVERY DAY- then you haven't gotten the picture yet!

From http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/judgment2.htm
Llew wrote:
It is actually not about being saved from Hell, since there is not actually a Hell…and there never was
Then what is the point?

My whole point is, there must be a bad that we have to conquer in order for any sort of reward to be sweet and desirable.
Is sin not bad enough? Do you not know that horrors of sin?, murder, rape, torture are these not bad enough?, does there have to be something else? Sin is bad, that’s why the penalty is death…

Will it not be sweet and desirable when there is no more sin or death?

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