Beliefs, is there a right or wrong way?

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Llew
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Post by Llew »

Magus wrote:So.....

***rubs hands together***

What'd I miss?
This big 'ol long discussion about life, the universe, and...oops. wrong line.

About weather there is such a thing as hell (I say yes, DK says no) and what the point of it is, and who will be saved...and we stray from that topic like sheep from the fold :lol:
Also everyone is not saved at the same time, is it not better to be in the first group?, The first to experience the heavenly treasure? The first to know God?

Well...to put it quiet bluntly, that seems kinda lame to me. I defiantly don't want to be offensive, because winning an argument (which is impossible) is not worth friendship, so please don't take it personally.


A question; do you have any verses that you are basing your assumption that hell dose not exist?
“I Speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to My Horse” - Charles V, King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor, 1500–58

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Post by Qray »

Dark Knight wrote:
Qray wrote:Now again, I'm not arguing the existence of Hell. I'm arguing for the fairness of the system and on the surface it seems to be pretty fair.
Actually the Hell taught by the churches and others is not fair…. You get the same sentence no matter what you have done…. So one who murder ten people, gets the same sentence as someone who was just a liar… how is that fair, both spend eternity in Hell….???
I would disagree. I was arguing for who's responsibility it is that a person ends up in Hell. Is it's God's responsibility because He created the system, or is it the individuals fault for failing to abide by that system.

Whether the punishment fits the crime is another topic. One for when I've had more sleep.
I'm going to die the way I've lived...poor, screaming, and naked.

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Post by Qray »

Ariel wrote:Speaking of bad. How can God allow children, or anyone for that matter to starve? Or allow the horrors of torture? That always bugs the heck out of me.
I hear people ask this question quite alot.

How can God allow this?

How about...how can WE allow it?

I'm not saying that we're bad people, I'm just saying is how much food do you have in your kitchen? How many blankets are sitting in your closet? How many jackets?
I'm going to die the way I've lived...poor, screaming, and naked.

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Post by aldan »

Ah, but Q, if you blame it on God, then you don't have to feel responsibility on your end.

I have a sister who has stopped believing in any sort of god. Why? Well, it's because of the hypocrisy of so many 'righteous believers'. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" is the famous quote from the KJV of the bible. I believe that it does mean that, but that it's probably missing something like, "by the same measure with which you judge others."

Anyone, IMHO, who says he/she believes in God, needs to be sure to live the laws that they purport to believe in, and they should be sure to be as merciful to others as they hope that God will be to them.

As for predestination, I don't think it's a 'truth'. I mean, if the Earth was created to test us, to try us, to cause us to have to struggle to learn and grow, which I do believe in, then to be predestined to get an A on the test would make it pretty worthless to be here.

"Jamie, this is the first test of the semester, but since I already know you're going to get an A on the test, don't worry about it. You don't need to take it. Just sign it and you'll get your grade. Now, Bobby, you're going to fail this test, so take it or pass it, it won't matter. You didn't even need to show up for class today. In fact, class is dismissed! You may check in on Monday to see what you've gotten on the first test that none of you will be taking."

I do believe that God knows each of us, and knows what we will probably do, and He will also give each of us the tests that will try us and cause us to have to stretch our abilities the most. Some have no problem with humility, while others don't know the meaning of the word. Some very kind people are addicted to drugs.

Why be tested? Why are we here on Earth? It's especially true that there would be no purpose to being here if there was predestination....
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and to appear stupid than
to open it and remove all doubt."
---Mark Twain

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Llew
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Post by Llew »

Why be tested? Why are we here on Earth? It's especially true that there would be no purpose to being here if there was predestination....
The reason I believe that is only because of those verses I quoted. The bible says it, so I believe it. Simple. I can't believe anything else, no matter how wrong it seems to some people. Now, if someone were to explain another interpretation of it, that was even plainer then "Written before the foundation of the world" I might change my mind, but not before.
"Jamie, this is the first test of the semester, but since I already know you're going to get an A on the test, don't worry about it. You don't need to take it. Just sign it and you'll get your grade."
Ahh, but does God tell us that we are going to be saved? No, he doesn't. Thats what the battle is all about, we don't know that we are going to be saved, and so we must fight the good fight of faith.

And then theres a different way of looking at it;

God: yes, you will be saved, but only if you fight for it all your life. But if you say "Well, God said I'm going to be saved so I don't have to do anything."
then you're not going anywhere.

Like I've said before, you can't just sit on your porch and wait for God to plant your field because he said he will provide for you.
“I Speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to My Horse” - Charles V, King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor, 1500–58

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Post by MrB »

I have to say, I don't care whether God exists or not, I personally think he/she is an ****hole, surely no deity, no matter how omnipotent could allow the world that they supposedly created, fall into such chaos, and not do something to correct it. I guess that is going into a whole other argument that would take too long to resolve.

No, the thing that struck a chord with me, was your last comment Llew, you said something about the size of the field God expects you to plant...

I'm sorry I can't agree with that at all, If God is an all powerful, all loving, all etc etc, and I would assume, FAIR, then surely the size of a persons field should be equal to everyone elses ?

If the size of a persons dedication to God, is set by the difficulty of the task given and dictates the hierarchy in which they will sit when they die, surely that defeats the point of a fair God ? Does that not suggest, by definition, that God favours one over another and yet all are created equal ?!?!

I'm sorry I'm confused here, are all men created equal, or are some more equal than others ?

Like I say, I don't care about God, If he exists, then he can get stuffed, he's unfair, unkind and generally unpleasant and if I have to go before him when I die, then I'll tell him to his face. How can a God that purports to be loving allow HIV/Aids, Cancer, War, Racial Bigotry, famine, Earthquakes that cause mass destruction and death on an unprecedented scale, Homophobia, Murder, Rape, Infant Cot Death, Autism, Scizophrenia, Athsma, Drug Abuse, etc etc, the list is endless.

Now I know what's coming next, all the comments about being punished for our Sins, Freedom of Choice, eating the apple of the tree of knowledge... *beep*, God is a nasty piece of work who sits up on high and watches the human race tear itself to pieces, he doesn't deserve our praise, or our worship. If he wants our respect, then he needs to earn it !

Rant over !
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Llew
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Post by Llew »

I'm just....sad. I think I will drop out of this because I don't want to be enemys with any of you.

No, the thing that struck a chord with me, was your last comment Llew, you said something about the size of the field God expects you to plant...


I said nothing about sizes....


:cry: there I go again. I'm sorry.
“I Speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to My Horse” - Charles V, King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor, 1500–58

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Post by Ariel »

Llew, no need to drop out of the conversation. We are a good group of people here who can carry on a conversation without getting bent all out of shape or angry. If someone's opinion differs from my own, I try to respect that. You said what I have often felt, that winning an argument isn't worth losing a friendship or something to that effect. We are all friends here.

I can understand Mr. B's feelings and point of view. It is difficult to understand a God like the one portrayed in the bible. I couldn't worship that kind of God either. Also, the bible was written by man and interpreted and re-interpreted and things icluded and things left out. :roll: There must be a God, a creator or higher being or whatever, but I would hate to think it is the God of the bible.

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Post by Ariel »

As for people taking responsibilities instead of blaming God, there are those who do and those who don't. What about God's responsibilities for his own creations? Some will say you need to experience darkness before knowing the joy of light and that kind of thing, or we need certain experiences to learn from them etc. There is such a thing called limits. Some things in life are far too severe: physical and emotional suffering etc. Where is God's compassion?

I have seen good people suffer greatly. It just isn't right.

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Post by Qray »

I agree with your views on predisposition, Llew. It could be not so much that our fates are set in stone as God has decreed it, but if you go by the assumption that God is all knowing, He simply knows what our individual fates will be.

Say I could see into the future and knew when everyone was going to die. I write down all these names and dates in a book and keep it in my office. Now how would my knowing this alter anyone's life?

I fail to see how God's knowledge of our ulitmate fate hinders or limits anyone. We determine our ultimate fate, not Him. He just already knows what it's going be.

I was helping my nephew do his homework the other day. He was working on a math problem and I had figured out the solution in my head long before he was done. Now how did my knowing the answer long before my nephew worked his way through the equation alter what my nephew had done?
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Post by Magus »

Wow... just decided to chime in and compliment your reasoning Qray. It's probably the best on such an argument as I ever heard.

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Post by Qray »

Ariel wrote:I have seen good people suffer greatly. It just isn't right.
I've seen everything a man could see...I've seen the strong survive.
I've seen a young boy crying for food...I've seen an old man die.
I've seen the system fall apart from the rules...and all our Presidents lie.
I've seen the needle and damage it's done...the wreckage left behind.

My soul survives.
Forever doing time on a dead-end street.
My soul survives.
Blood like wad running down to my feet.

I've seen the broken dreams and broken hearts...I've seen the strong be cruel.
I've seen a man driven by success...and break the golden rules.
I've seen them execute a man for love...blood running cold in the streets.
I've seen war and the heartache it does...God bless my souls to keep.

My soul survives.
Forever doing time on a dead-end street.
My soul survives.
Blood like a wad running down to my feet.
My soul survives...forever.
Pick yourself up off your hands and knees.
I get so pissed off it makes me want to scream!

I've seen the gunshot heard around the world.
I've seen the young child crawling and fondle the Earth
I've seen everything a man could see.
I've seen Heaven...Hell...it makes no difference to me.


There are those like MrB who blame God for the state of the planet.

There are those like myself who blame the people.

I think both views have partial validity, but the actual truth lies somewhere in-between.

The one thing that makes me lean more towards blaming people is the fact that those that blame God for not intervening in our affairs are usually the first to complain about when He does by saying He'ss too controlling and is interfering with our free will.

You can't have it both ways.
I'm going to die the way I've lived...poor, screaming, and naked.

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