Beliefs, is there a right or wrong way?

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Bread Butterbeard
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Post by Bread Butterbeard »

Nicely said Neuro, as for myself do I believe in God? Yes, but my beliefs are certain to be far different than yours or anyone else's we are individuals and thus have the right to chose and make up our own minds.
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Post by Qray »

Ariel wrote:I can't see there being a 'hell'. It makes no sense that a good, and loving God would torture his own creations.
Perhaps He wants us to know there are consequences to our actions. [shrug]
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Post by clknaps »

No I disagree, those would go to the “Lake of Fire” for a period of time, for cleansing, before going to Heaven…, which I explained in my blog…..


Dark Knight, are you a JW or a 7th Day Adventist? Just curious, CLK
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Post by Ariel »

Sorry, I believe in God, but being in fire hurts like hell and to purposely put someone there is rather harsh, cruel and unacceptable. Say someone does go to that lake of fire, obviously he/she will change their ways. They were Forced into it. I don't get it.

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Post by Qray »

I'm looking at this from a more philosophical aspect. Not whether it exists or not, will it happen or not, but for sake of argument, that it does.

If you buy into the principle of consequences, is it God putting someone into Hell, or is the person putting themselves there?

It can be likened to Prison.

Society makes laws which you must abide by. If you don't, you go to jail. So if you break a law that would land you in jail whose fault is it? You for breaking the law, or whoever created the law?

God made laws which people must abide by. If they don't, they end up in Hell. Now who's fault is it that? The person that broke the law, or the person that created the law?

Now again, I'm not arguing the existence of Hell. I'm arguing for the fairness of the system and on the surface it seems to be pretty fair. Even fairer than say societies system of laws. Why? Well let's look at the basic ten laws...(Lutheran)

1. I am your God. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol.
2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
3. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
4. Honor your parents.
5. You shall not murder.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house.

Now there are others, but let's just stick to the basics for now. Looking at the list, that's a pretty easy list. Don't kill, steal, lie, snogg the neighbor, lip off to your parents. Much easier than societies laws IMHO, but even if these ten laws are too strict, God has given you an out.

Say you go ape chit and whack someone. Premeditated and everything. You still have the option of reaching down inside and realizing the wrongness of what you've done and all you have to do is ask for forgiveness, and mean it. Clean slate. The murder never happened. Try THAT in a court of law.

So yeah, you could blame God for people ending up in Hell, or you could put the blame on people that put themselves there. Don't hate the player, hate the game? Nah, hate the player.

Sometimes I think God must be the ultimate disappointed parent. Sitting up there where ever he sits and looking down and shaking his head saying "Man, I made it as easy as I could for them and they keep smegging it up. Don't snogg the neighbor. C'mon! This is common sense stuff here! The neighbor is married, I better not snogg them. And the platypus, I figured they'd stay busy for at least a few centuries just groovin' on that alone, but noooooo..."
I'm going to die the way I've lived...poor, screaming, and naked.

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Post by Qray »

Ariel wrote:They were Forced into it. I don't get it.
Now say I painted a yellow line on my front lawn and erect a big sign that says...

"If you cross this line I will whack you in the face with a shovel!"

Now getting hit in the face with a shovel might not be as bad as roasting in Hellish fires, but it's gonna hurt. It's going to leave a mark and at the very least it'll probably mess up your weekend.

So what happens? Eventually someone walks into my yard and crosses the line.

So...I forced them to do that?
I'm going to die the way I've lived...poor, screaming, and naked.

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Post by Ariel »

I understand what you're saying. Still...all the fire and brimstone is a bit much. But that's just how I feel.

To me, it doesn't matter what anyones belief system is, as long as they are good people who live with compassion and respect for others etc.

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Post by Dark Knight »

I can't see there being a 'hell'. It makes no sense that a good, and loving God would torture his own creations.
Yes I agree totally…
Dark Knight, are you a JW or a 7th Day Adventist? Just curious, CLK
I use to be a JW along time ago, but not any more, and I have never been a 7th Day Adventist

My belief is usually called Christian Universalism or Universal Reconciliation…
Sorry, I believe in God, but being in fire hurts like hell and to purposely put someone there is rather harsh, cruel and unacceptable. Say someone does go to that lake of fire, obviously he/she will change their ways. They were Forced into it. I don't get it.
You don’t understand, the book of Revelation, in the Bible, is full of symbols, the name “lake of fire”, is in there….. You have to work out the meaning…. He is not going to put your body in fire and watch it burn… that is stupid… And how can you have a lake of fire? A lake is a body of water?… As explained in my blog, this is a spiritual fire…. Yes it will hurt, but it is not like the hell commonly taught…This is spiritual fire is used for cleansing of ones mind…. {Don’t people read my blog, don’t you read my blog?}

God will not want someone who was a murder, to just walk into heaven, thinking evil thoughts “I hate all these people in heaven, I want to kill them, if only I had a gun blah, blah, blah. ….This person needs to change…. Needs to change their thinking, they need to move away from hate to Love

Yes Good will purposely put someone there, because he loves them, he knows that he must correct their ways, before they can come home….have you not heard of rehabilitation…???

Some criminals go though rehabilitation….

In the same way God puts people through rehabilitation, then they too can go to heaven…..

All the wicked and unbelieving are said to be cast into this Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment of ALL humanity. They are not found written in the Book of Life and they will therefore not be given eonian life in the kingdom of God…….

The vision of Revelation is full of spiritual signs and symbols which are deeply rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures, especially as it relates to the Temple services. Outside the Temple of Solomon was the brazen Sea. This was a huge bowl of water for the priests to wash themselves for their ceremonial cleansing (1 Kings 7:23-26; 2 Chronicles 4:6). Now in the New Testament we read about the Sea of Galilee, which is really a Lake. It is describing a huge expanse of water. So we can already see that the Lake of Fire is related to the brazen Sea as a means of cleansing or purification. Now let us look at the fire element.
We've already established earlier that the fire of God is His Law, His justice, His righteousness. The Greek word for fire is pur from which we get such words as purify and purge. Natural fire has this effect on materials that can stand the test of fire, such as gold and silver. These metals can be purified by fire to get rid of all the dross, the unwanted, impure alloys. So we have two witnesses, from nature and Scripture, to show us that fire cleanses and purifies, and so does water. In the Lake of Fire we have the picture of both in a powerful, figurative image.
In relation to this, the Lake of Fire is also described as 'the Lake of Fire burning with sulphur or brimstone' (Revelation 14:10; 19:20). Interestingly enough, the Greeks used sulphur in the rituals of the gods as a symbol of divine cleansing. The Greek word used here for sulphur is theion which is the same word translated 'divine,' which comes from the Greek root word used for God or Deity. So even in the sulphur we have the picture of divine cleansing.

From http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/hell%20doc.htm

And also in my blog: “Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus, Lake of Fire?”

Now again, I'm not arguing the existence of Hell. I'm arguing for the fairness of the system and on the surface it seems to be pretty fair.
Actually the Hell taught by the churches and others is not fair…. You get the same sentence no matter what you have done…. So one who murder ten people, gets the same sentence as someone who was just a liar… how is that fair, both spend eternity in Hell….???

And it paints God as evil…. Torturing people for all eternity, is evil…. If a human tortures someone, is that not evil?, but if God does it, it is not?

Sometimes I think God must be the ultimate disappointed parent. Sitting up there where ever he sits and looking down and shaking his head saying "Man, I made it as easy as I could for them and they keep smegging it up. Don't snogg the neighbor. C'mon! This is common sense stuff here! The neighbor is married, I better not snogg them. And the platypus, I figured they'd stay busy for at least a few centuries just groovin' on that alone, but noooooo..."
No he is not disappointed, everything is on track, the plan of the ages is working as it should… He knew we would smeg it up…. That was the plan all along….
Last edited by Dark Knight on Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Qray »

Ariel wrote:I understand what you're saying. Still...all the fire and brimstone is a bit much. But that's just how I feel.
Oh I agree, it sucks.

Going by the same premise that Hell exists, I'm curious as to what God intended Hell to be. Punishment, a deterence, or a combination of the two.
I'm going to die the way I've lived...poor, screaming, and naked.

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Post by Believer »

I have read everything yall said, and I understand, what about the balance? We all know that the Devil is evil and betraying, but what of the fallen angels and such, they go to hell for they are no longer welcome in heaven. The Devil has his way getting people and keeping them, even with that persons consent. God put us on this earth to choose, and if they for some unknown reason, choose Satan, then that is their choice and they will go and be with him in hell
Love: a temporary insanity, curable by marriage. -Ambrose Bierce-

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Re: Beliefs, is there a right or wrong way?

Post by clknaps »

Believer wrote:You look around the world, and there are so many beliefs, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, paganism, There are so many beliefs, so many ways, but are there really any right or wrong religions?
Believer, would you agree with the statement that "all paths lead to Heaven?"

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Post by clknaps »

Dark Knight wrote:
My belief is usually called Christian Universalism or Universal Reconciliation…
DK - text quoted from Wikipedia: Christianity

Main article: Universal reconciliation

In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans will be saved from eternal damnation or annihilation in hell. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels. Universalism was a fairly commonly held view among theologians in early Christianity. The two major theologians opposing it were Tertullian and Augustine. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.[1] In later centuries, universalism has become very much a minority position in the major branches of Christianity, though it has a long history of prominent adherents.

END quote by Wikipedia.

Just for clarification, would you agree that this is what you believe?

Thanks, CLK
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