Speculative Vision

Mr. B, you do indeed have a right to voice your opinion. I completely agree about the fleas! Mosquitos too! Hate those things!!

Now God created everything. He created Angels right? And the devil was first an Angel then fell from grace? Well if he created the angel, he created the angel's mind. So didn't God in essence create the potential for evil? I don't get it.

A lot has been said since I last came here….

First up, predestination, this is part of God’s over all plan to reconcile us to him… The ones being reconcile now {predestine}are going to be use by God to reconcile everybody else….

Llew wrote:A question; do you have any verses that you are basing your assumption that hell dose not exist?

Bibles like: Rotherham’s Emphasized bible, Young’s Literal, Newsberry Reference and the Concordant Literal, do not mention Hell at all… Of course one could argue that does not prove anything…. But there is not one verse in a well translated bible, that says anyone is going there….

Qray wrote:I was arguing for who's responsibility it is that a person ends up in Hell. Is it's God's responsibility because He created the system, or is it the individuals fault for failing to abide by that system.

God is responsibility because He created the system, {Assuming the Hell exists, which it does not}.

Of course he is responsibile for what he created, and that is why he has responsibility to set things right.

Llew wrote:Ahh, but does God tell us that we are going to be saved? No, he doesn't. Thats what the battle is all about, we don't know that we are going to be saved, and so we must fight the good fight of faith.

I believe he does tell us we are going to be saved:

1 Timothy 2: 3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

There he told us….

1 Timothy 4: 9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.

See he told us again…

1 John 4: 14 And we have gazed upon Him, and are testifying that the Father has dispatched the Son, the Saviour of the world.

Who is Jesus Christ? Saviour of the world. That is three times… and there are many more…..

Everybody gets an A...

But as I have said, not all at the same time, but each in there own order…

What about God's responsibilities for his own creations?

Yes God's responsibilities, that's why he will set things right.

Where is God's compassion?

You will see that Ariel, everyone will see God’s compassion in time….

Ariel wrote:It is difficult to understand a God like the one portrayed in the bible. I couldn't worship that kind of God either....There must be a God, a creator or higher being or whatever, but I would hate to think it is the God of the bible.

Is it the one portrayed in the bible that you can’t worship, or the one that you think is portrayed in the bible. Is it the one portrayed by man who thinks he understands the bible, that you can’t worship? The God I believe in is the one in the bible, however he is deferent to the one others believes in, who also believe in the bible...

Many study the bible, and most follow the main believe of the major churches. However some like me study the bible and see a totally different God….

If you (I'm not saying you do) blame the state of things on the God of the bible, then you will also have to blame it on the "Other" God--the one thats 'More loving and compassionate'....Because of the state of the world. He must not be any better then the God portrayed in to Bible.

The God I believe is more “loving and compassionate', then what is portrayed by man. The church and others tell us what the God of the bible is like, but that does not mean they are right. I believe differently....

I also find it strange that so many die never having the comfort of knowing, only wondering.

All will know in the end, who said you have to find out in this life… God will raise all from the dead…

As for free will, that is something we don’t have, we can only make choices…..

Now God created everything. He created Angels right? And the devil was first an Angel then fell from grace? Well if he created the angel, he created the angel's mind. So didn't God in essence create the potential for evil? I don't get it.

To show that evil is bad? To know evil you have to experience it...

To show that your own way leads to death and destruction...Then God can show you the right way...

Look, all I'm suggesting, is that if there is a God, an to be honest, I'm not convinced, then it really is about time he put his house in order. I am not blaming God for Mankinds failings, the human race is a despicable creature at times, we can be guilty of the most heinous deeds and then we can be responsible for great beauty in the world. The unfortunate problem at the moment is that we are the small child, pooping on the floor, at first yeah it was probably amusing watching us bumble along making our little mistakes, but in the last few hundred years, it has gone beyond the joke.

We are killing the very planet on which we live, all in the name of Money, which could be argued is viewed as a God, we spend millions of pounds/dollars thinking up ingenious ways to kill people en masse, then justify it with words like Freedom, Justice, Good and Evil. We wage war on people, whose only crime is to be living in the wrong part of the world, then explain that we are freeing them from tyranny, what tyranny are we freeing them from ?, their lives have been the same for thousands of years, farmers, oblivious to the world and its surroundings who are more preoccupied with whether or not it will rain today !

I ask you, is it not about time that God, who supposedly created all that we see, hear, smell, feel and taste, took reponsibility for his creation and said enough is enough.

There is a quote from a movie, I forget which, that goes something along the lines of...

"I do not blame people for their mistakes, but I do expect them to take responsibility for them."

Now, if that "mindset" is wrong, then I'm happy to be wrong.

Who knows, maybe the best thing that could happen is the total extermination of the human race, Earth would probably be a whole better place to live !

Right, where's my Batman comics, this arguments just about run its course, and I've got other things to do !

I agree with that rant, MrB.
But going by what is said in the Bible, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

First up, predestination, this is part of God’s over all plan to reconcile us to him…

What is your take on the book of life? How do you explain it away?

"Rev 13;8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain."

It tells me that before the foundation of the world, God wrote the names of those who would in the end, come into his kingdom. I don't believe he would have stressed that point if it didn't matter if your name was in the book in the end.

MrB wrote:Now, just wait a moment here, I have not blamed God for anything, if you have taken my comments that way, then you have misread my post. Let me try and put it another way...

Comments like this :

MrB wrote:...no matter how omnipotent could allow the world that they supposedly created, fall into such chaos, and not do something to correct it...

and

MrB wrote:...How can a God that purports to be loving allow HIV/Aids, Cancer, War, Racial Bigotry, famine, Earthquakes that cause mass destruction and death on an unprecedented scale, Homophobia, Murder, Rape, Infant Cot Death, Autism, Scizophrenia, Athsma, Drug Abuse, etc etc, the list is endless.

Led me to believe that, but if you say it isn't so, so be it.

I was in fact saying that there could be validity to the "blame God" opinion. But if that's not you, I'll give the credit to Ariel.

MrB wrote:If you have a small child, and he/she poohs on the carpet, what would you do ?

Rub their noses in it and whack 'em on the head with a newspaper?

MrB wrote:Would you do nothing, risking the chance that the child is more than likely going to do it again, or would you explain why poohing on the carpet is wrong ?

If you allow the child to continuously defacate an the floor, eventually there will come a point where enough is enough, and something must be done about it.

That would all depend on how old the child was.

Now, say I built a house, and gave it to my son to take care of for me. He defecated all over the floors. What would I do? Nothing. It's his house to live in so he must deal with it.

Now, say I also let a bunch of other people live in the house too. They call me up one day and say "Hey, this guy you let live here is defecating all over the floor. Can you do something about it?"

Well, sure I can, but I gave the house to you guys to manage. So manage it for me.

Ah, but it gets better. Using the same analogy, let's look at why God doesn't help people in another way...

Let's say a mondo wind comes through and shatters all the windows. All the people I let live in my house call me up and leave a message on my machine "Hey! All the windows are broken! Fix them."

I cruise by and for some reason, I decide to just replace one of the windows. Who knows, maybe I thought that the person that lived in that room would get sick from all the wind coming in and the others wouldn't, maybe I just thought the girl that lived in that room was cute, who knows. I'm the homeowner, who knows what goes through my mind.

Trust me kids, you don't want to know.

The point, I only fixed one window and all the other ones are still broken. No one notices that one fixed window, they just keep noticing all the broken ones.

The point being, maybe God is still intervening in peoples lives. We just don't see it now-a-days.

If you do something right, no one will know you've done anything at all.
-god-like nebula in Futurama.

Just because we humans think such and such needs to be done, doesn't mean we know what the best thing for us is. I mean really, look at the planet. We've made a good and proper mess of it. So when we say "God should do this," or "God should do that," it could be thought...Dude we can't even manage not to defecate on the floor, and we think we know the correct way to run the Universe?

I'd be nice to have the window fixed though. It's getting cold in here.

MrB wrote:This was the point I was trying to make, and any suggestions that I might be angry or trying to start a fight are completely without merit. As everyone here I'm entitled to an opinion, if this is not the case, and opinions are only welcome provided they fit in with others, then I have been mislead about the nature of Speculative Vision, and I would be very disappointed.

I never said, nor meant to imply that you were angry at a specific person or trying to start a fight. If I did think that, I would've PM'ed you about it.

Your entitled to your opinion and more than welcome to post it. I believe that is the entire purpose of this topic. The discussion of whether or not all opinions (which I believe beliefs can be) are right or wrong. Just as I am able to voice my opinion. One that may either be different than yours, or pose another thought or way of looking at a particular subject.

I can see your point of view that if there was a God, he should be doing more to help the people on the planet, but I can also see the point of how can we tell if He is helping or not? Or if He's not, what's his reasoning behind not helping. If we believe His PR, He's omnipotent. He may have a good reason. Even if we haven't figured it out yet. I think all these points have merit and are valid.

MrB wrote:As for being angry, certainly not, I was however annoyed by your vicious little diatribe, concerning "those" like myself. I had not made any remarks about anyone else, so I fail to see why you felt it necessary to make them about me, but if you apologise, then I'm sure we can forget about it and move on.

Comments of yours like the following made me think that :

MrB wrote:...I don't care whether God exists or not, I personally think he/she is an ****hole...

and

MrB wrote:...God is a nasty piece of work who sits up on high...

[shrug] It sounded angry to me.

As for diatribe. Really? Looking back it doesn't seem prolonged, ironic, or satirical. Though the fact that I'm rambling on at the moment while refuting a possible diatribe in my writing...that's ironic.

Qray wrote:
As for diatribe. Really? Looking back it doesn't seem prolonged, ironic, or satirical. Though the fact that I'm rambling on at the moment while refuting a possible diatribe in my writing...that's ironic.

Perhaps not, however I did think it was a bitter and abusive writing. Look, if we are going to start a pissing competition about who knows the bigger word then fine, I can see my time at SV has come to an end.

As far as I am concerned you were being obnoxious, your original comment was designed to provoke a reaction and it has. I quit, this will be my last post at SV, please feel free to remove my account.

No don't go!

Llew wrote:

First up, predestination, this is part of God’s over all plan to reconcile us to him…

What is your take on the book of life? How do you explain it away?

"Rev 13;8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain."

It tells me that before the foundation of the world, God wrote the names of those who would in the end, come into his kingdom. I don't believe he would have stressed that point if it didn't matter if your name was in the book in the end.

I do not explain away the book of life, I never said I did. The names in the book are the ones that get to come into the kingdom at that time. The rest, who go to the lake of Fire, come in later. The book does not stop these people coming in.

1 Corinthians 15: 21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation,

Each in his own class, all will come into the kingdom, but not all at the same time....

As for the way things are now, I do believe that at some point God will end this Age, and a new better one will begin… God is taking reponsibility for his creation….

One could argue God is let us do our own thing, so that we will see we just create a mess….

Come back MrB

-reads up and shakes head- what have I started -chuckles- I think this is out of my league now, hmmm

It did rather go places didn't it?

People all have their own belief system. Bottom line: Be the best that you can be, make good choices. Live by example with love and compassion. Let your light shine!

Agreed Ariel. My opinion is, Believe in good, believe in righteous, and believe in your own way, because in reality, no matter how hard some try, you will always be just a little bit different then the next person. As long as you believe in the way of good, not evil, then there should be no doubts, or no worries. Because the truth is, with every religion out there, the is no way of telling what is the right or true way, because, in my opinion, there is none.