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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:06 pm
by Boikat
Anal! What language! Anal-retentiveness! What characterisation!
"Anal retentive" means "stuck up", "arrogant".
From one who engaged in conversation with another Site member to be convinced _to urge the whole SV to down arms_, gullibly accepting this other Site member's _false_ arguments and wrong information! That was bad service to SV, Qray.
Am I making a "false argument"? If so, what about my "argument" is false?

Not that my OP was meant to start an argument, which is quickly degenerating into a flame war, but to point out a "posting peeve", and to express concern that the "grammar police" was causing at least one poster to consider leaving SV.
For some reason, that concern seems to have put a burr under your saddle. At this point, all I can say is "Tough", which appears to mirror you opinion about my opinion.

I've said all I have to say on the matter.

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:05 pm
by Bmat
The thread is for posting about things that one finds annoying.

That some people find their grammar being corrected on posts (other than formal writing threads when such corrections have been requested) is annoying, has been established.

When another member commented that a good example should be set so that English does not deteriorate further than we already observe that it has, this is a good point.

I do not feel that the two issues, that of not correcting grammar when it has not been asked for, and that it is well to use correct grammar, are opposing sides.

It is true that SV is not a formal school. People who post here are not required to use correct grammar. It is also true that correct grammar assists in communication. Considering that SV is used by people for whom English is not the first language, this is an important consideration.

Nevertheless, The Master did not intend that a requirement for posting at SV be that one uses only correct grammar.

I am taking this issue to The Master for comment.

The thread is on the verge of causing hard feelings, if not already there.

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:36 pm
by Ariel
I sure miss a lot when I don't check all the threads.

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:45 pm
by LightBrigade
Bmat wrote:The thread is on the verge of causing hard feelings, if not already there.
It the thread that is causing it? *s* We keep the same perspective, refusing to see the causes, so problems of the same kind will appear again and again; as they appeared a few days ago, and appeared again now. Let us lock the threads and scold and perhaps punish them!

It is wise to perceive a cry of pain as need for mercy, even if one has to admit having been wrong himself for causing this pain. Especially a person of power.
Bmat wrote:I am taking this issue to The Master for comment.
What you do as a moderator does not concern the simple members. Logically then, your comment above may be perceived as a threat of use of force against wish for dialogue. Personally, I am positive is not. Misunderstood as such though, by others and not me, it is likely to add to the heat.

I see my suggestion that horses are held has not reached willing ears... anyway, the point of this message is the underlined part.

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:12 pm
by Ariel
:? Of course a moderator's decision affects the simple members Lightbrigade.

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:21 pm
by Bmat
What you do as a moderator does not concern the simple members. Logically then, your comment above may be perceived as a threat of use of force against wish for dialogue. Personally, I am positive is not. Misunderstood as such though, by others and not me, it is likely to add to the heat.
In this case it is not a threat, rather a reassurance. I said that The Master did not intend the site to be one where correct grammar is a requirement. I am reassuring the members that I acknowledge that I am only a helper here, and we'll hear the actual owner of the site state his policy.

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:54 pm
by Dark Knight
I understand some people feel the need to correct

Boikat never said he did not want you to correct him, however he would like it done via PM...

This I feel is a good solution...

Then the poster can decide if to correct or not...

A simple error, does not usual cause misunderstanding....

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:22 pm
by LightBrigade
I nod to Dark Knight's wise utterance.

Bmat, it's not fair for The Master. You are a goddess of loyalty and labour and charity here, individually and collectively (Magus, we must discuss Jung's Collective Consciousness you mentioned, and Dostoevsky is waiting for us after this - please? And let's get that lazy guy who teases us allatime, yeah, Qray of course, into it, alright?) yet I feel that

we, the simple members of SV must have no idea really about how much time he must devote to keep the Site running, keep it sustainable (have you noticed the ads appearing lately?), PR, promotion for mere existence, clear and _safe_ of our particularities of extremes, not to speak of how much his pocket must be tried. He has to monitor the Site entries, add "features" (does anyone with Webmaster experience know what that really means?), upgrade features, fix "glitches", _apologise for them_, add a note here and there... and that is done

for

years

on end.

We ought to support him in this. If this started as his 'Favourites' toolbar drop-down menu, it has grown to a live thing, a place for people. And he has been generous and humane in deed. And if we look at the Library and the Art Gallery and the Network and the forums for writers and people who need to talk and... , well, we may suspect he's being even more than that. One can ask oneself what a cornerstone in the building of the civilisation of mankind is.

We here, as members of SV must be part of the solution, _not_ part of the problem.

What can each one of us do about it? And about the man who appears as The Master?

People have created Halls on line to honour the creator and patron of Speculative Vision. What can we, each one of us do _for him_?

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:38 pm
by Qray
LightBrigade wrote:Anal! What language! Anal-retentiveness! What characterisation!

From one who engaged in conversation with another Site member to be convinced _to urge the whole SV to down arms_, gullibly accepting this other Site member's _false_ arguments and wrong information! That was bad service to SV, Qray.

From one who attacking a member, to cover the barbarity, protested, hearyee, hearyee for that member not taking insult lightly! What a poor trick for hiding!

After another mod dares utter "is that you the answer, Aldan?", a mod practicing irony if not sarcasm at the expense of a simple status member! And much unfairly so! What a fine example set for the rest by a learned young man! So, is that you, Magus, the answer to what you posted?

Is that you the answer, so remarkably learned leader? (It does sound too spiteful, doesn't it? It is not for it is an example, like a mirror. My writer feels only good for Magus, as any parent learns to be.)

And the other watching mods, instead of rectifying all that, throw oil into the fire of insult and contempt and arrogance displayed by peers, both by discreetly being absent when simple members are battered or even posting to the wrongdoer moderator's support when they become disturbing and insulting themselves. Or by resignation : _rectify_ is the answer, and self-sacrifice, not let the anomaly continue after one's absence. THAT is responsibility.

Next, the administrator, but he is my last hope, so it won't serve me to expose him - j/k really. Scared? OK, next time don't pretend you did not see your child in the Bar, Zeus, father of mods and men ... sorry, gods and men. *s*
I have no idea what your talking about. You'll have to speak a bit plainer for me to comprehend.
Boikat wrote:"Anal retentive" means "stuck up", "arrogant".
In this case I was going more for the description of a person with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes a detriment.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:05 am
by Llew
Well, ladies and gentlemen, an apology is hardly enough. The vulgar and the quick with irony, hold your horses of position for it is a service post, not a podium for display of your talents, whatever they are. Silence in shame is a useful respite because a few days ago, another incident of heated conversation and direct insult, drove another member away. He was wronged, while being in fever to be of use, in fever to offer. You never saw it or you never accepted it when you felt he was insulting you. I saw no apology by the mod. Instead, I further saw harsher speech against another targetted member. A pity really!
LB, I personally think you are seeing it wrongly (If I know what thread you are talking about).

I do not see it as a moderator abusing his privileges when he simply debates a point.

I would call deleting/editing the opposing post/and or banning as abuse of the privilege.

The way you put it, the mod does not have the right to state his/her point just like any other member, and that said mod is abusing the authority when they do.

I do think that the mod has the responsibility to step in if the flames get high, but they are entitled to their opinion just like anyone else.

I see you drawing a line between the mods and the 'simple members' that should not be drawn, because it simply does not exist.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:19 am
by Merle
Bottom line, do you correct others' grammar in casual conversation? Of course not, unless the others are your children or students, because it is bad manners. To do so in public would only serve to humiliate the one being corrected.

In Aldan's case, I've always taken his grammatical musings as humor.

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:32 pm
by LightBrigade
Merle wrote:Bottom line, do you correct others' grammar in casual conversation? Of course not, unless the others are your children or students, because it is bad manners. To do so in public would only serve to humiliate the one being corrected.

In Aldan's case, I've always taken his grammatical musings as humor.
Is it _that_ difficult to get? Thank you, Merle.

However, what I find escapes us here, is a fundamental necessity in the matter. The matter is posting here. Posting is done to communicate with one another. If every one does as they like, what communication will there be?

It is a sensitive subject because it has been acknowledged at academic level that the wider culture in which it appears here and now is characterised by particular tendencies in this very matter. I would like to ask boldly, can we add to development towards better communication, less misunderstanding, if the following rule is valid?

What unites us is good and what divides us is not so very good.

- - -
re : "does not exit" Very realistic, Llew!