DK Talks {religion and other stuff}

Want to discuss something else? Anything goes here!

Moderator: Bmat

User avatar
Site Regular
Site Regular
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:33 pm
Location: home soon

Post by ola »

You see it a little too dark in my humble opinion. There has been improvement: liberation of black people from slavery, womens rights... It's not all flowers and sunshine, racism is still there, yes, discrimintion of women is still there, yes.
Consider people are different. There is always some unsocial person.

I give you this little story, maybe it will say the things I'm not able to express:
"Scorpion needed to get across the creek and asked the frog for a
ride. Frog says, "I can't trust you, you're a scorpion." Scorpion says, "sure
you can." Hops on the frog's back. Midway across, the scorpion stings the
frog. Frog looks at him. "Why would you do that? Now we're both gonna die."
Scorpion says ... "I can't help it. I'm a scorpion."
"He's a stranger to some
and a vision to none,
he can never get enough
get enough of the one" 30stm-from yesterday
There are so many sides to life....why should I only have one? :smt084

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

Depends how you look at things.....

Yes there has been improvement in those areas, however other things are heading the other way.....

Increase in swearing on TV
Increased nudity and sex on TV
Increased violence on TV and in CP games

Increase in Drug use...just look at what I post on Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:20 pm on Drug use in Europe
Following a seven-fold increase over the last decade, says the agency, at least 530,000 clients now receive substitution treatment across 28 countries

That's what I call an INCREASE......

Now I not saying all these people who are receive substitution treatment are bad or evil, but drugs are bad......

And I all so post about the rise in shoplifting, fraud and robberies in the UK,
A surge in shoplifting, fraud and robberies cost UK retailers 2.1 billion ($5.4 billion) in 2004 as violence and intimidation against staff increased at a worrying rate, a survey shows.
Now I admit this is only one area the UK, but note it did not just increase it surged......

I suppose it depends how you look at things....

And I have just find out there are a load more false teachers (religios people) (not school teachers) out there that the Bible warns me about, there are truck loads.. :shock:

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

I'm not same that false teaches are bad people, the thing is they don't know they teach false stuff....

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part2 By: Dark Knight

The main three views Universalism, Hell/fire, and Annihilation are held by people who have been studying the Bible for years. As you can see all this study can lead to completely different answers.

If you read the bible, and just listern to one side of the debate, you will think that that is the answer. Hence the need to study and come to your own answer.


1: It does not teach punishment for sin.

Yes it does teach punishment, but not on going punishment. The idea is the punishment should fit the crime.

2: There is no scripture to back it up:

Yes there is, here is one of them....:

1 Timothy 2:3-4  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

More will be posted later......

3: People will sin more:

Actually the most popular view of Hell {that of suffering forever } has not stopped people sinning.

The people who use this objection state that, since everyone will get to heaven no matter what you have done, the teach of this view, will have people sin more.

However holders of the Universalism view teach future punishment, so the more you sin the more punishment, but not forever.

4: You have to believe before you die {get saved}:

No not according to this view. Under this view, All will come to believe {and get saved}, most after they die.

Why should you limit God, so that he can only save you before you die?

An interestion Question.....
Last edited by Dark Knight on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part3 By Dark Knight

1: Why would God have billions of people born, only to know in the end they are going to die forever. Why force life on a person, if he knows that in the end he is going to extinguish that life?

2: People will sin more, there are people out there that would sin more if they knew they would be dead forever.

3: “Annihilation is the triumph of death over life: it is the very antithesis to the Gospel, which asserts the triumph of Christ over every form of death.”
From “Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

4: Death, perish, lost, do not mean the end in the Bible.

Every person who has died will be raised, people who teach Annihilation, also teach the Great White Throne Judgement, here all unbeliever will be raised, from where?, from death of course….

“Further, this theory wholly breaks down in practice. So far from "perishing" implying final ruin, Christ came specially to save that which has "perished," - to apololos, the "lost," "ruined," "destroyed ;" the original term is the same which is often translated "destroy," and on which the theory of annihilation is so largely built. The same word occurs in S. Luke xv., and there is applied to the Sheep, the Coin, the Prodigal Son - all of which are thus 'destroyed," "lost," and yet finally saved. In S. Matt.X 39, xvi. 25, to "lose" (destroy) one's life is stated as the condition of finding it. So Christ is sent to save the "lost" (destroyed) sheep of Israel . So Sodom and Gomorrha are destroyed, and yet have a special promise of restoration. - Ez. xv. 53:5 Take the Antediluvians. After they had "died" in their sins they were evangelized by Christ in person. - I S. Pet. iii. 19. Hence the unanswerable dilemma, either all these are annihilated, or you must give up that sense of "perishing" on which the theory is based." From “Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

5: It rules out Judgement based on works. If every unbeliever has the same sentence, i.e. death, then there is no judgement based on works. Indeed if one person is sentence to live long as a punishment, before he dies, than another, this world seem strange. Yet the Bible is clearly you are judged on you works. If I sentence a person who stole a handbag to the same sentence as a murder i.e. Death, is that a judgement based on works?, NO.

6: This is in conflict with the promises to restore all things.
“This theory stands in hopeless conflict with the promises to restore all things, to reconcile all things through Christ, which abound in Scripture; nay, which form the very essence of its teaching when describing Christ's empire.” From “Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

Annihilation is clear not the end for unbelievers.

no idea
While this has the view that all could be saved, the large hope, it could also mean that at the end of the day, that the oppose could also be true. If I am revolted at the idea that all unbelievers will be sent to Hell, and hold the view that I don’t know what will happen, then that surely tells me that my deepest fear might be true, that it is a possibility. Then how can I go on, with my religion, knowing that such an end is possible.

It can lead to a large hope, or end in unbelief.

"Why try to solve a question which is probably insoluble, viz., the problem of man's destiny ? In reply we ask what the objection really means? Are we to give up every great question because we can only partly solve it? To do so would be to give up all questions, to bid farewell to all knowledge. For every great question contains an insoluble element. Take, e.g., the problems of Life, of Matter, etc. Take such questions as the Trinity, or the Incarnation. Are we to give them all up?” From “Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

Dismissing these two, we are left with two views….. Hell/Lake of Fire or Universalism

More parts to come......
Last edited by Dark Knight on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part 4 By Dark Knight

I have never held the Annihilation view, mainly because I had a different view that I thought was correct. As you can see I still think Annihilation is not the answer.

Before we get in to Hell/Lake of Fire, I think now we should cover what happens when you die.

Do people go to Hell when they die?

Most Christians have the view that when you die if you’re a believer you go to Heaven, if you’re an unbeliever you go to hell and get tormented.

It is my view that no one is being tormented in hell right now.

Point one, unbelievers have not been judged, so why are they being tormented right now? Why tormented them now, then judge them, and then as the popular view has it, send them back to be tormented again?

Does God sentance someone before he judges them?

Problem two, Hell comes from translating the words Hades and Sheol, Hades is not the Lake of fire.
The Lake of fire is Gehenna
Hades is cast into the Lake of fire. If you are tormented in Hell, then go and get tormented in the lake of fire what is the difference?, why don't you just go back to Hell?

Sometimes in stead of using Hell the translators would use grave. Some say Grave is the correct translation, of these two words Hades and Sheol. Hades being a place of rest?

What about the rich man and Lazarus parable. First of all it is a parable, not a true story. With a parable, you have to work out what the different things mean. Who or what does the rich man represent. This also goes for Lazarus and Abraham.

“And with many such parables spake He the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake He not unto them: and when they were alone, He expounded all things to His disciples.” (Mark 4:33, 34)

This tells us it is a parable but the Bible does not tell us what this parable means, hence the problem. Lazarus is the poor man, and represents the Gentiles he is poor spiritually {not for lack of food}, who are brought to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man is represents the Jews.

If the Gentiles are faithful they will have a close relationship with Abraham. On the other hand the rich unfaithful man ends up suffering.

Judah [the Jews] proved to be totally unworthy of their high calling. Their heart’s turned from the declarations of God. Claiming Abraham as their father did not exonerate them either.

So what does happen when you die?

Sleep?, I did not use to think people slept, when they died, surely believers went to Heaven and unbelievers go to hell. However some hold the view that you sleep. This view is held by some of those who believe in Universalism but it is also held by some of those who believe in Annihilation.

“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.” (2 Peter 2:9)

This says they are being reserved for judgement.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [Sheol], whither thou goest.” Ecclesiastes 9:10

Notice no work, no knowledge, no wisdom....

. “There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.” (Job 3:17)
Job 14:13. “O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave [Sheol], that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!” Experiencing much suffering Job asked God if he could go to Sheol, where he would have rest.

He would not have find rest if he was being tormented, and he clear would not have asked to go there.

Genesis 37:35. “And all his [Jacob’s] sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [Sheol] unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.” (Genesis 37:35)

If the translators had used Hell, it would reveal that Jacob really believed that Joseph had gone to Hell and that Jacob believed that he to would go there when he died.

Objection, surely believers go to heaven. Not so fast, surely believers should be judged before they get to heaven. We known everyone is judged including believers, they don’t get judged until the Resurrection of the Righteous.

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

This shows believers and unbelievers are asleep.

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [Hebrew: Ruwach] shall return unto God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

This shows the spirit goes back to God, when you are Resurrected, you get your spirit back. You sleep until the Resurrection.

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. … For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.” (Acts 2:34)

David is not ascended into the heavens, so where is he? We can see he will ascended, so why has he not ascended now? maybe because he is asleep?

So did Christ go to Hell or the grave?

“Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (Acts 2:27)

Note that Peter was quoting, Psalm 16:10. “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (Psalm 16:10)

If the translators had used Grave, this would have shown that Christ slept in his tomb with his body.

No one is being tormented in Hell right now....

In the next part we will look at Hell/Fire......
Last edited by Dark Knight on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part 5 By Dark Knight {you should know that by now}

Hell/Lake of Fire, Hell Fire Lake, Lake of Hell Fire

I earlier covered the point that Hell/Hades is different to Lake of Fire, many have the view that they are the same place. This is wrong, the Lake of Fire is after the judgement point, Hades is before. The problem arises because, most Christians believe and teach that people in Hades and in the lake of fire get tormented by fire in both places. This is wrong, as I pointed out no one is being tormented in Hell now, but now the question arises, do people get tormented in the lake of fire/Gehenna forever.

Being tormented in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna forever

This is the most popular teaching in the Christian world, but does that make it right?, does that make it true? Is there any objections or problems with the model.


1: It limits the power of the cross to the brief moments of earthly life. It teaches that God can not, or will not save you after you are dead. If God really loves his enemies as the Bible teaches, then why will he not save them after they are dead? Is God so powerless that he can not save you after you are dead?

2: It teaches that the Will of man is stronger than the will of God. God’s will is to save all mankind, but because a human decides not to be saved, then God can do nothing about it.

3: Most of humanity has not even heard of God, do they also get burned alive forever, even thou they have never heard. Yes loads have heard in this day an age, but what about before the Internet, before the telephone, before the printing press??? And even in this day age loads have not even heard……

4: It teaches that most of humanity will be lost forever. No matter how you do the numbers, most people though out all time don’t believe in the God of the Bible. 2 Billion Christians maybe a big number, but there are over 6 billion alive today. That is only a third, and of the 2 billion how many actually really believe….???? And how many though out all history have truly believed in the Christian God.

5: What of the people who die before the age of reason. Does this mythical age really exist? Some people actually teach that babies will burn in the fire forever. This is an evil teaching to be sure, but it is actually what they believe, they teach a most evil God….

6: IT teaches That God is double minded. God loves his enemies before they die, but if after they die they are still enemies, then he hates them. Surely torturing anyone for all entity is not love, it is hate, is it not?

7: It teaches that all the saved people in Heaven will be blissfully happy, even thou their loved ones are rotting in Gehenna. We will be singing, dancing, praising the lord, while our friends and relatives are being burned. If that is the case, then all the saved people will be most evil indeed……Some even teach that we will be able to see the unbelievers being burned, if that is not evil then what is.

8: Judgement based on works. How can this be a judgement based on works, if all unbelievers get the same sentence? Is this fair? What is the point of this judgement if everyone ends up with the same sentence.

So are there more problems, or not. Find out in the next part...
Last edited by Dark Knight on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part 6 By Dark Knight

Being tormented in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna forever part2

Lets take a look at this idea, in a different way….

The problem of ETERNITY in this idea.

Image a 100 years, now all the days in hundred years….36500 days, then the hours…876,000, then the minutes….52,560,000 then the seconds….3153.6 Million seconds. Now each second represents a century of torture in the lake of fire. Once all the centuries have pasted, how closer are you to the end of eternity????

You are no closer to the end, the people suffering are no closer to the end of their suffering…….

Lets look at it this way, you take all the water in all the oceans and seas of the world. That’s a lot of water….. Now imagine every drop of water in all the oceans and seas.
So we have trillions upon trillions of drops of water…….Each drop of water represents a century of torture in the lake of fire. Now at the end of all this torture, how close are you to the end of eternity????

In fact it is the same answer, as above… are NO closer….

or we could look at it like this:

Picture yourself being burned and tortured without relief and without any hope for trillions of centuries. Well, of course, we humanly cannot imagine such torture for such a long period of time--our minds and our emotions are incapable of it. If any sane Christian could witness, even for a few hours or a few days, the kind of hideous torture presented by Christian doctrine, I believe he would seriously reconsider whether a loving God is capable of such sadistic punishment. Try to imagine this torture for most of the human race, continuing for trillions upon trillions of centuries. Try this: A grain of sand contains millions and millions of atoms. Imagine that every atom in the known physical universe represents a trillion centuries of torture in Hell. It would thus take billions of trillions of centuries just to complete the atoms in a single grain of sand. Now imagine going to the second grain of sand, the third, the seven hundred and eighty ninth billion grain of sand, then all the atoms in the Earth, our Milky Way Galaxy, the next closest galaxy, the next billion closest galaxies, etc., etc., ONE ATOM (a trillion centuries) AT A TIME! How far into eternity do you suppose such a mind-warping number of centuries would take us? It would take us NOWHERE into eternity! Victims of such a heretical teaching as eternal torment would be NO closer to the end of their ordeal after all these trillions upon trillions of centuries than when they began. They would not be ONE SECOND closer to the end of their suffering.


What evil thinking, and teaching.....

In the next part, will we look at more problems?????....
Last edited by Dark Knight on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part 7 By Dark Knight

Being tormented in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna forever part3

More Problems…..

9: If believers are meant to love there enemies, then surely they should love all unbelievers, then all in the lake of fire are loved ones. Then why should anyone be happy in heaven if even one unbeliever is being tortured forever.

10: Fire. Most Christians teach and believe that this is a real fire, but is it? In the bible we learn that believes will also get judged, by FIRE. A what? believes judge by fire?. Yes believes are judged, by fire. So if believers are not actually burnt by real fire, why do Most Christians believe and teach that the fire in Revelation is a real fire?

A Believers work is judged by fire, all the wood, hay, stubble (rebellion of the flesh, the carnal mind) is burnt up. All the gold, silver, precious stones, are made better…..

Makes you wonder what happens to unbelievers?????

11: Brimstone: What is this evil thing, that no one ever hears about. That’s right if you are taught the most popular teaching you almost never hear of this stuff. But surely it must make the fire hotter, or something, right…..???? WRONG Dead wrong…..

Revelation 19:20 ………These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,

Revelation 21:8 ……. shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone

Brimstone is there, so it must be there for a reason, what is it?

Brimstone: Brimstone-sulfur-used in fumigation to get rid of pests and bugs. Sulfur is used in medicine for healing. (Sulfur and molasses-blood purifier) (sulfur salves and sulfur drugs) Sulfur was used in ancient times for bleaching cloth Isa. 1:18 ) Taken from Encyclopedia Britannica. Smith's Bible Dictionary: Fuller is one who bleaches cloth. (Isa. 7:3; 36:2; Mal. 3:2; Mark 9:3.)

A? What? That’s right!, HEALING! Hello, what is going on here? Maybe it has something to do with purifying? If someone gets….there mind cleaned out…????

12: Forever" and "Eternal” , are Not the correct translations of the word aionios or aion for that matter…..

The correct translation should have been age. Which means a period of time with a definite beginning and end.

““There is much confusion in the New Testament because the Greek word “Aion” (or Eon) meaning “age” has been translated by eight different English words, as follows: ‘Ages’ twice; ‘Ever’ 30 times ; ‘Ever and Ever’ 21 times; World’ 35 times; ‘Worlds’ twice; ‘Course’ once; ‘Eternal’ twice; and ‘End’ once. When the word “age” is substituted for the above, it will be seen that not our material world is meant, but a period of time. Take the following for illustration. Matt. 12:32; 13:39-40; Mark 10:30; Luke 20:34-35; Gal. 1:4; 2 Tim. 4:l0; Heb. 6:5; Rev. 20:l0. In the Greek it will be seen that we have the singular “Aion” (or Eon) Matt. 24:3; the plural “Aions” (or Eons) in Eph. 2:7; in Rev. 20:10 “Aions of the Aions,” and in Eph. 3:21 “Aion of the Aions.” (end of quotation.)
In the above quotation Mr. Larkin proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the inconsistency the revisers who gave us the King James or Authorized Version in dealing with the Greek word “Aion” or Eon. “

From ... 0Times.htm

So we learn that people will be in this lake for a period of time, not forever. So what happens after that?

13: “It's amazing to think, as some Christians teach and believe, that we're supposed to forgive people even if they don't ask, but that God Almighty wouldn't or couldn't do the same. The good news is that God's forgiveness for all of our sin--past, present, and future has been deposited into His "sea of forgetfulness" and is a far away as is the "east from the west". Hallelujah! “From

14: If our God can’t overcome evil with good, how can He expect us to do the same? When we are faced with adversity, why should we respond in love, when our God, in the end, fails to do the same? Why should we forgive seventy times seven when there will come a time when God will not forgive most of those He created for ever and ever? Why should we turn the other cheek and not render evil for evil, when God, who is supposed to be good, renders evil with evil?

15: The doctrine of “eternal” torment misrepresents the character of God who is pure love and forgiveness. “Eternal” punishment says that God’s love will fail for most of His creatures, His forgiveness has an expiration date, and He either can’t or won’t show mercy beyond the grave. Even if someone in “hell” were to cry out for God to show mercy and beg Him to give them another chance, this hard and calloused god will simply turn away, ignoring their cries as if he’d never heard them.

16: Which brings us to the problem, is God evil. Most Christians would say no, but most Christians believe that God is going to torture all unbelievers in the lake of Fire forever. This is afar greater torture, than any human has done to another human. More to the point when the person doing the torturing is usually said to be evil. Surely this kind of torture is most evil, more evil than any human has ever done. This teaching actually teaches that God is EVIL. Which is a major problem, God is not evil, therefore this is not the right teaching.

“My first appeal shall be to that primary revelation of Himself which God has implanted in the heart and conscience of man. I am merely expressing the deepest and most mature, though often unspoken, convictions of millions of earnest Christian men and women, when I assert, that to reconcile the popular creed, or any similar belief in endless evil and pain, with the most elementary ideas of justice, equity, and goodness (not even to mention mercy), is wholly and absolutely impossible. Thus this belief destroys the only ground on which it is possible to erect any religion at all, for it sets aside the primary convictions of the moral sense; and thus paralyses that by which alone we are capable of religion. If human reason be incompetent to decide positively that certain acts assigned to God are evil and cruel, then it is equally incompetent to decide that certain acts of His are just and merciful. Therefore if God be not good, just, and true, in the human acceptation of these terms, then the whole basis of revelation vanishes.”
From “Christ Triumphant”,” by Thomas Allin

In the next part, we WILL look at more problems!!!!! and hopefully finish up the sub-topic "Being tormented in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna forever"......
Last edited by Dark Knight on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part 8 By Dark Knight

Being tormented in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna forever part 4

17: God knows what will happen to every human, and is the Father.

“Such a man will say, you tell me God is good, but what acts are these you assign to Him? He is a father; but He brings into being myriads of hapless creatures, knowing that there is in store for them a doom unutterably awful. He calls into existence these creatures, whether they will or no; though the bottomless pit is yawning to receive them, and the flames ready to devour them.From “Christ Triumphant”,” by Thomas Allin

“can a Father permit the endless, hopeless, sin and woe of even one of His children, and look on calmly for ever and ever unmoved and unsympathising”
“Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

18: Is there a restitution of all things?

“can the Bible be mocking us when it teaches a restitution of all things, and that a time is coming when God shall be "All in All."” “Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

How can there be a restitution of all things if people are burning in the lake of fire….????

19: It teaches the Cross is a “stupendous failure”

Jesus dies on the Cross, but he failed, he did NOT saved the world. He did not saved the lost. Sinners where not saved, the lost sheep are still lost…….{Jesus is the good shepherd or is he…..}

“Further, it virtually teaches that the Cross is a stupendous failure. This is easily shown. For plainly that which misses its end is a failure. And if the end aimed at be noble, then in proportion is the failure greater and vital. But the scriptural evidence is overwhelming, that the object of Christ's death was to save the world. "The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." He came that the world through Him might be saved; i.e., the world in all its extent, not a part of it, however large.”“Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

20: Do people really believe this stuff???

Again, there comes this very serious obstacle to accepting the popular creed. I shall state it thus, either this creed is true or false If false - the question is ended. If true, can this strange fact be explained - that nobody acts as if he believed it? I say this, for any man who so believed, and who possessed but a spark of common humanity - to say nothing of charity - could not rest, day or night, so long as one sinner remained who might be saved. To this all would give place - pleasure, learning, business, art, literature; nay, life itself would be too short for the terrible warnings, the burning entreaties, the earnest pleadings, that would be needed to rouse sinners from their apathy, and to pluck them from endless tortures. Ask me what you will, but do not ask me to believe that any human being, who is convinced that perhaps his own child, his wife, his friend, his neighbor, even his enemy, is in danger of endless torment, could, if really persuaded of this, live as men now live, even the best men: who can avoid the inevitable conclusion that its warmest adherents really, though unconsciously, find their dogmas absolutely incredible? In fact these men (and it is the best thing to be said for them) teach their creed without real conviction. Their best eulogy is that they are self-deceivers.

These remarks also explain an obvious difficulty, viz., it has been shown how the popular creed cuts at the root of all religion, poisoning the very fountains whence we draw our conceptions of love, of righteousness, of truth. But if so, it may be fairly asked, how is it that society subsists, that morality is not extinct? Because, I reply unhesitatingly, because no society, no individual, can possibly act, or has in fact acted, on such a creed, in the real business of life. It is simply impossible: who would dare so much as to smile, if he really believed endless torments were certain to be the portion of some member of his household - it may be of himself? Marriage would be a crime; each birth the occasion of an awful dread. The shadow of a possible hell would darken every home, sadden every family hearth. All this becomes evident when we reflect, that to perpetuate the race would be to help on the perpetuation of moral evil. For if this creed be true, out of all the yearly births a steady current is flowing on to help to fill the abyss of hell, to make larger and vaster the total of moral evil which is to endure for ever.
“Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

21: The problem of Joy at weddings and a mothers joy for her new baby……

“Wherever human beings exist, in what form of community it matters not, in what climate or under what conditions of life soever, there is found everywhere a deep spontaneous belief, call it feeling, instinct, what you please, that connects the marriage tie and the birthday with joyful associations, with mirth and gladness. Now why is this - has it no meaning? So deep an instinct, one so truly natural and spontaneous as this, comes surely from the Creator of all. His voice it is that bids the bridegroom rejoice over the bride, that bids the heart of the mother overflow with tenderness towards her babe. This being so, again let me put the question, and ask, why has this been so ordered? It is God who has so ordered; do you think He has had no purpose in so doing, no message to convey to those who have ears to hear? Is it possible that our Heavenly Father should bid His creatures everywhere to rejoice with a special joy at the marriage feast, at the natal hour, if these births were in fact destined to add largely to the ranks of hell, to the hosts of evil? Do think over the matter calmly, and ask yourself if that is possible, if you can believe any such thing? And as you think it over, take with you these words of Jesus Christ (that hint so much). They remind us how the mother, in the "perilous birth" bath sorrow; but add, that all that sorrow is swallowed up in joy--" joy that a man is born into the world."“ “Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

Being tormented in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna forever is not the answer to what happens to unbelievers. I use to think it was, up till the end of last year. In fact up till just before Christmas of last year. I have already pointed out Annihilation is NOT the answer. So what is the answer???…and what is my new view on what happens to unbelievers….Find out in up coming parts……
Last edited by Dark Knight on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part 9 By Dark Knight


The answer of course is YES, all mankind {including women} will be saved.

Universalism is the Answer? YES part1

But just ruling out the other views, does not make it the answer, we have to see why it is the answer.

Universalism Vs Christian Universalism

What? You might say…..

There is a believe out there in the religious world, that any form of religion will get you to heaven. This can be called Universalism, however I don’t believe in that….

Christian Universalism is what we will be looking at in this topic, and that is my new believe….Under Christian Universalism, Jesus died for your sins, for everyone’s sins, he is the saviour of the human race…..Everyone will get to heaven…..Really Good News…However unbelievers will have to face Judgement first…...

Christ’s sacrifice on the cross covered all sins, for all of mankind: past, present and future.

Christian Universalism

Let us be clear about what we believe in: BIBLICAL UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION which is CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM.

What do we mean by this term? We mean exactly as the Scripture in Colossians 1:20 says, that God will reconcile ALL things in heaven and on earth to Himself by Jesus Christ, having made PEACE through the blood of His cross. We firmly hold that Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross, is the only way to heaven.


Now to look at why it is the answer…..

First lets Look at freewill

Why is freewill so important in this discussion….???

In the Arminianism view, the free will of Man can frustrate and thwart God’s will to save all mankind.
According to Arminianism: Christ died for all people and God wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. However, God’s will can be frustrated and thwarted by man and God’s grace can be resisted by man’s free will, because ultimately it is left to each person to decide whether he wishes to be saved or not. Therefore, in order to go to heaven each person must choose and accept Jesus Christ before he dies. All those who die without choosing Christ will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (hell), where they will remain and be eternally tortured.
Some Arminian Christians believe in annihilation instead of endless torture.

This is the most popular view, most Christian churches are Arminian.

Under Christian Universalism, man’s free will can not frustrate or thwart God’s will.
According to the Bible: Jesus Christ died for all people, and God wills all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. God’s sovereign will and His grace cannot be thwarted or resisted by man’s free will. This is because the love of God, which includes God’s judgment, ensures that in God’s time ultimately EVERYONE will freely align his will with the will of the Father and choose Jesus Christ.


Free Will

Doubtless the problems of freedom and necessity contain an insoluble element. But we can look at them practically. You insist that everything depends on human choice. I reply, see how on the contrary man's choice is limited at every hand. First, man is born in sin; that is, certainly not wholly free. Take, next, the facts of life. In the first place man can exercise no choice at all as to the time and place of his birth - facts all important in deciding his religious belief, and through that his character; no choice as to the very many and very complex hereditary influences molding his entire life, though most often he knows it not; affecting for good or for evil every thought, every word, every act of his; no choice at all as to the original weakness of his nature, and its inherent tendency to evil. More, still, man can exercise no choice at all on this vital question, whether he will or will not have laid on Him the awful perils, in which, on the popular view, the mere fact of life involves him. Further, man can exercise no choice at all as to the strength of that will be receives; no choice at all as to the circumstances that surround him in infancy and childhood, and which colors his whole life; man has no choice as to the moral atmosphere he must imbibe in those early years of training, which color almost of necessity, the whole after life. "But a creature cannot" you reply, "choose these things, from the very nature of the case." That, I answer, only proves my point, that a creature cannot be wholly free, from the very nature of the case. What the facts point to, is that God grants a limited freedom, intending to train man, His child, for the enjoyment hereafter of perfect freedom.

Freedom enough is granted to resist God for ages; freedom to suffer, and to struggle; to reap what has been sown, till, taught by experience, the will of the creature is bent to the will of the Creator. If all this does not involve a freedom that is real, though limited, then human words are vain as a vehicle for human thought.

Further, this pleading for endless sin in hell on the ground that it is freely chosen by man, would, if true, but enhance the great difficulty of the popular creed - the victory of evil; for plainly, the more free on man's part, the more willful his choice of sin, so much the more complete is the triumph of evil, so much the more absolute is the failure of the Cross.

To preserve man's dignity he must be permitted to become the slave of evil if he will, the associate of devils for ever - to secure his prerogative of freedom he must be allowed to sink into hopeless servitude to sin.

A lunatic is to be restrained; a criminal to be imprisoned; an incendiary to be arrested; but the moral criminal, the spiritual incendiary, these are not to be constrained even by grace divine!

But again, it obviously follows that if man is in this sense free, i.e., is free to defy God finally, then either (a) God does not in any real sense will the salvation of all men, but does will man's absolute freedom, at the cost of his salvation (if the two conflict), or (b) He does will it, but is unable to accomplish {achieve} it.

My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." - Is. xlvi. 10.

"Whatever the Lord pleased, that did He, in heaven and on earth." - Ps. cxxxv. 6.

"He does according to His will, in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth." - Dan. iv. 35; V. 2 I; iv. 3, 17; vii. 14. Prov. xix. 21; Xxi. I. Ps. lxix. 13; xcix. x; ciii. 19; x. ;6; xxix. 10, &c., &c.

From Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

{{achieve} add to get past problem with "sh" at end of accomplish}

As previously mentioned, man DOES make choices, however, he DOES NOT have ultimate and final control over his own destiny. It is God who is in control of all forces and environmental conditions and He will use these however He chooses in order to accomplish His will.

Man devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps. (Prov. 16:9)

Man's goings are of the Lord. (Prov. 20:24).

The King's heart is in the hands of the Lord, He turns it wherever He desires. (Prov. 21:1)

Men make choices and decisions every day, but something (or Someone) creates a circumstance that causes these decisions. If I scratch my body (my own choice), I do it because I have an itch. If I eat a meal (my own choice), I do so because I am hungry. If I hurt another person (my choice), I do so because they did some harm to me. For every choice we make, there is a cause greater than the choice. It is your basic cause/effect principle. For every effect (in this case our choice), there is some cause that prompted the action. As no one would deny that God is sovereign over all things (including Satan), it is God who can change circumstances as He pleases to bring about the desired effect. In this way, we may think we are totally independent from God in the choices we make, but in reality, there is Someone greater than ourselves working behind the scenes to bring about a perfectly orchestrated finale. God is the great conductor who controls and leads men to respond with a simple wave of His baton.


As can be seen man does not have total free will, but freedom enough......

More parts to follow as to why Universalism is the Answer......
Last edited by Dark Knight on Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Dark Knight
Artisan Wordsmith
Artisan Wordsmith
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 pm
Location: My Tower

Post by Dark Knight »

All WILL BE SAVED? part 10 By Dark Knight

Universalism is the Answer? YES part2

There are three distinct and separate schools of Christian theology. These are Arminianism , Universalism, and Calvinism

We have already looked at Arminianism, but what is Calvinism?

According to Calvinism: God has predestined to save a certain group of people; these are called God’s elect. God’s sovereign will for His elect cannot be resisted or thwarted as His irresistible grace ensures that all of them will freely and willingly choose and accept Jesus Christ, at some point in their lives before they die. The non-elect cannot come to Christ because natural man is totally sinful and depraved. Salvation is entirely the work of God from start to finish. All believers (the elect) will go to heaven, but all unbelievers (the non-elect) will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (hell), where they will remain and be eternally tortured.
Some Calvinist Christians believe in annihilation instead of endless torture.

We have ruled out annihilation and eternally torture, already, so why are we looking at Calvinism, when we know it is incorrect?

They are partly right God has predestined to save a certain group of people who are called God’s elect. These people will be saved before they die. However everyone else { all unbelievers}, will be saved after they die. Unbelievers will get to heaven, at there appointed time…..

Do you choose Christ or does Christ choose you?

Most Christians believe in freewill, people can freely reject Christ or choose Christ. Therefore if you reject Christ it is your choice, and you only have yourself to blame for end up in Hell. However we have just worked out that no one has freewill, you can not reject God’s will, your will is not stronger than God’s will.

Now lets see if you can choose Christ all by yourself.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

A? what? That’s right NO ONE can choose Christ, without the help of the Father {God}. If God does not act, you can do nothing to find Christ. This should be enough to throw out the theory of freewill, but here is another verse to help boot this concept out the door.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

As we can see Christ done the choosing, you did not do the choosing. So only those who are chosen by Christ can be saved now {the elect}, however everyone else will be chosen in the future. The chosen or elect, should not feel that they are above everyone else, because they have been chosen, and others have not, it is a gift from God. As the next verse states:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

And again another verse to deal a final blow to freewill and Arminianism.

John 6:37
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

He we can see it again, they are drawn by the Father, and given to Christ. And the saved can not lose there salvation. Christ does not cast them out.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

It is clear the elect have been chosen before the foundation of the world, since you where not there back then, how can you chose?, the choice has already been made long before you where born.

People who realise the truth of these verses reject Arminianism and are then left to choose between Calvinism and Universalism

However because they don’t want unbelievers in heaven along side them, they reject Universalism and choose Calvinism. However this is a mistake, there will be no unbelievers in Heaven along side believers. Everyone in heaven will be a believer…..

Q: Wait just a minute you said unbelievers will get to heaven…??????

Yes unbelievers will get to heaven, however along the way they will be converted into believers. All unbelievers will become believers in the end…..

John 10:14-16
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10:26-30
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

As we can see in the above verses, there are two kinds of sheep {People}. My sheep are the elect, and are saved while they are alive, they have been chosen and are given the free gift. But Jesus the good shepherd has other sheep, the large body of unbelievers. And what does it say of them, it says they will hear his voice. It says the two kinds will become one flock, unbelievers will be saved…….they will here his voice and become believers, there will be one flock….

More parts to follow as to why Universalism is the Answer......
Last edited by Dark Knight on Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply