DK Talks {religion and other stuff}

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Dark Knight
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Post by Dark Knight »

Well that is the end of the extracts and articles, on suffering and we also covered sin.....>>>

When sin entered the world, the world changed, because of this change we have Natural disasters.....

God knew humans would sin, and knew they would suffer.....

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MrB
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Post by MrB »

So Joe bloggs, god fearing Christian (again this sounds like a contradiction - if god is all love and stuff, why should we fear him ?), sitting in his house, after a hard days work, never comitted a sin, always worshipped god, went to church every Sunday, the epitomy (sp?) of goodness is suddenly hit by a forty foot wave which picks him up and smashes him into a wall breaking almost every bone in his body, however Joe is still alive at this point, he then drowns because he can't swim as his bones have been shattered, not only Joe is killed, but his wife his grandparents and three of his children, his fourth child manages to survive the wave, but as she is ony six months old she starves to death because it takes rescue workers two weeks to find her...

Still I suppose Joe is comforted by the thought that he is paying for the sins comitted by other people eh ?

I don't think I have ever heard a bigger pile of guff in my entire life, don't get me wrong I believe in god, but I do not believe for one minute he/she is the kind of chap that would kill thousands of people on a whim !
You can't dangle the bogus carrot of possible reconciliation in front of my face whilst riding some other donkey.

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Post by Dark Knight »

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

That's right, all have sinned, you may have missed this point, but it was covered, but that is what the bible is clear about.....

"But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not."

So he may not have done something evil, or comitted a sin, but just thinking about doing a sin is a sin.....

So there is no Joe bloggs who has not sinned.....

As to do with "fear", I may cover that later....

but I do not believe for one minute he/she is the kind of chap that would kill thousands of people on a whim !


I never said the tsunami or any Natural disasters where a result of a whim, and it does not say that in any articles I have posted......

["Biblically, Adam represented not only all of his descendents, but he was also the head of the created order since he was given dominion over the earth. Therefore, when he fell, sin entered into the world (Rom. 5:12) and with it the effects of being fallen spread to the earth as well as to humanity."

From http://www.carm.org/evidence/suffering.htm ]

We see that the earth changed at that point, which resulted in the Natural disasters that happen though out earth history....

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Post by MrB »

Then what possible sin could a six month old baby have committed ? perhaps it was gurgling too much, no wait, I've got it, breast feeding that must be the sin...
You can't dangle the bogus carrot of possible reconciliation in front of my face whilst riding some other donkey.

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Post by Dark Knight »

No breast feeding is not a sin......or gurgling (at least I think not) >>>

So lets try to look at this difficult area....>>>>>>

"Two passages in Psalms tell us about the true nature of children. One says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity" (Ps. 51:5). The other reads, "The wicked are es-tranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps. 58:3). There are no exceptions. All of us are born with a sin nature; even though we have not yet done anything wrong, our nature is sinful."

"All of us are born with a sin nature; even though we have not yet done anything wrong, our nature is sinful."

from http://www.backtothebible.org/bigquesti ... .htm#child

Also note:

"While it is true that sin is the ultimate cause of suffering in the race, it is seldom true that individual sin is the immediate cause of the suffering.
.....
And it was widely held among the Jews that children suffered because they inherited the consequences of their parents' sin. This is a truth that is woven into the thought of the Old Testament. "I, the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation" (Exod. 20:5). A parent may indeed set in motion a train of consequences which reaches to his children and grandchildren. But in the vast majority of cases we must not try to attribute a person's suffering to his immediate sin. "

from http://www.ifca.org/voice/98May-Jun/FRENCH.htm

"When we speak of “innocent suffering,” we must therefore do so in a qualified way. Only our Lord suffered innocently. Everyone else who suffers does so as a sinner. When we speak of “innocent suffering,” then, we speak of suffering that is not directly due to personal sin, but sin that is due to the sin of others."

from http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1056

"Children come to a point where they become morally aware; that is, they understand what's right and what's wrong.

So what happens if your child dies before he is aware of what is morally right or wrong? He is still guilty of his sins and must pay the penalty for his sins. That's where the blood of Jesus Christ comes in. Young children have not rejected the blood of Jesus as the heathen have. It is there for them, covering their sins, wash-ing them clean, even though they have not had the ability to exercise faith in Jesus, which is required for the salvation of men and women who understand the conse-quences of their sin. A child's lack of understanding doesn't deter the power of Jesus' blood. Only rejecting the blood deters its power, and babies haven't done that."

http://www.backtothebible.org/bigquesti ... .htm#child

But have I answered the question lets look at some other stuff...

Edit:

This last part is wrong, babies have not accepted "the blood of Jesus", they are not saved, but they will be saved.......

This assumes a cut of point, and one second over, and you have rejected, What Rubbish
Last edited by Dark Knight on Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dark Knight »

"For the one who recognizes the Bible as the revelation of truth from a sovereign God, there is an ultimate answer: the all-encompassing answer to the problem of suffering is sin. The vital text is Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." The movement of thought is 1) Sin entered the human race through Adam (Gen. 3). 2) Death came through sin; sin was the vehicle that brought death into the race. 3) Because of the solidarity of the race, sin and death were passed along to every person."

from http://www.ifca.org/voice/98May-Jun/FRENCH.htm

Edit: Romans 5: 19 has the good news....:

19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dark Knight »

While David may have been guiltless in the death of the priests of Nob, his sin was the cause of the death of his child in 2 Samuel 11 and 12. While the army of Israel went to war, David stayed at home in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 11:1). As a result, David happened to look down on a young woman while she was bathing and then inquired about her. Even after David learned she was married to one of his faithful soldiers, David summoned her to his palace and slept with her. He then sought to cover his sin by ordering Joab, his commander, to put Uriah in the hottest part of the battle, and then to draw back from him. David was confronted by Nathan for his sin and was told that the child conceived through this illicit union would die. In spite of David’s repentance and petitions, God did take the life of this child. This “innocent” child died as the result of David’s sin.

from http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1056

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Post by Dark Knight »

So what to draw from all this....>>>>

Well we all have a sinful nature, when the baby grows up it will sin, if it dies before a certain age it will go to heaven.

Not all suffering is the result of your sin, but is the result of sin in the world.

There is salvation....>>>>>

Edit: Again what rubbish, there is no cut of point...but babies will get to heaven in the end.....
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Manji »

Basically, the baby is going to hell because it's not old enough to repent because his mommy and daddy had a little touchy-in-the-private-areas on night so therefore the child that was conceived is naturally a sinner.
*beep*. Why did god give us this ability then? Did he not want us to grow as a species? If sex is a sin no matter what your marital status is, then why not let gays marry?
and that whole BS about "Thinking about a sin is as good as a sin" is BS, too. Oh, and if god created our minds and it's not right for us to contradict him, then why the hell did he give us the ability to do so?
You wanna know what I think? I think the bible humpers have screwed the bible and rewritten it so much to conform with their views and beliefs at the time that we have no real idea what the hell the bible says anymore.
HELL! HELL! Hell wasn't even frickin' mentioned until the New Testament! Hell is the adult Santa Clause- It's a damned ploy created by the higher powers of civlizations to keep us in line.
The bible, what it says, is so damned vague that one passage can have one hundred meanings and those passages are just waiting for some young buck with the ability to manipulate people to give it a new meaning so he can mold his followers into his liking. By some people's beliefs, just being black is a sin! That's why you have all of those Militias with names like Brotherhood of the White Christian People!
We all interpret it differently. BTW, when the bible says we should "Fear" god it's really saying we should love him.
You want some bible explanations? Noah's Ark; Early civlizations built their homes on river banks. Whenever the river would flood, entire civlizations would be wiped out. Every great society, with differing religions, has a Flood Story. But, most of the people survived these floods. They STILL have them in China.
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Post by Starfire »

Take it easy Manji. No one said any sex was a sin. Just sex outside of marriage. I think we covered that. Marriage is a union of a man and a woman. That is why God said to be fruitful and multiply. We should have children it is part of the marriage thing. (I think we covered this ground already.)

The word does not say that babies go to hell. It just says they have sin nature. Like the way that you don't need to teach a child to be selfish, they just know. That is why parents must teach a child right from wrong.

Yes, the bible does warn us about the false prophets. Some people will use the name of god wrongfully. Jesus went over this I think Paul did too. (They are called sheep in wolves clothing.)

About gays marrying, that is covered in the old and new testament. God only allows marriage for man and a woman. Anything else is not marriage. It is against the faith. That simple. Some verses even cover that people should have sex when they are married and not deny each other. Who ever told you otherwise?

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Post by Ariel »

I prefer to think of myself as spiritual rather than belonging to any one religion or following one path. Everyone has their own belief system. Bottom line is this: We all come from the same source no matter what label we put on it.

I myself struggle with the suffering and evil in the world. I cannot fathom a loving perfect God allowing it to such depths.

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Post by Manji »

The baby was born from Sin, and therefore not innocent according to the bible.
"Wait, you're telling me Jesus Christ threw up the horns?"-Tycho
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