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Post by Dark Knight »

: A Different Evangel?

'I am marvelling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the good news of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! ...if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema (originally an accursed sacrifice to appease the 'gods' - not a good thing!) (Galatians 1:6-9)

There is a warning in the bible, that some people want to distort the Good news. People of the church say what the good news is, but they are wrong, the good news is not that ONLY believes will go to heaven. This is the distorted evangel. The Good News is that EVERYONE will go to heaven. People in the church keep reporting the bad news, that unbelievers will go to hell, but it does not say anywhere in the bible to report the bad news. There is no bad news to report, only the Good News….
Even back in the days of the apostles people where distorting the Good news, that was over 1900 years ago, no wonder we now have a distort evangel.

:shock:

See you in Heaven..... :wink:

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There is no Good or Evil

Post by Philip Harris »

This is a myth perpetuated by those who pass the plate. I believe in the ALL, of which we are all a part. There is no judgement, no hell, no devil and nothing to be saved from, except perhaps the purveyors of myth and division. There are no fallen or cast out, nor are their angels that seek to guide humanity. Instead they seek to put a yoke around our necks and keep us in servitude to a mythical, vengeful god that seeks self glory. Bow, down, worship, praise, sacrifice or I'll send you to hell forever. Sounds more like Saddam than a god.
We live in a Universe that seeks to express and explore its nature, and that is good.
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Post by Magus »

I was always tought of a loving and forgiving God, Phillip, rather than a vengeful one. Ironically, at Church on Sunday, the topic was God as a loving father vrs him as a vengeful and totaltarion figurehead of the universe.

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Post by Dark Knight »

Philip Harris, have you heard of reading?

Did you read the whole last post I post here before you posted....

It appears you did not, you are ready to past judgement on me, just because I'm a christian it appears.

I know where your coming from now, but I did not always know...

Not all Christains believe the same thing, so do not put us all in the same boat.

I said in the last post
The Good News is that EVERYONE will go to heaven
does that sound like some 'mythical, vengeful god", no, it does not....

I did not say that people will go "to hell forever"

And in fact I don't believe that anymore.....

So if you care to do some reading then you might find out what a few small number christians believe that is different to the majority...

In brief.....

Christian Universal is the believe that God will save everybody, that everybody will get to heaven. We still believe there is a jugdement, but that it does not last forever, after the judgement period is over, then these people do get to heaven.

We also believe that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the World...

You can have your own believe of course, but please don't base your view of my believes just on the fact that I'm a christian, or that I believe in the bible....

I don't believe in the hell that is perach by the main stream churches, I do believe that there is Hades, which is a place of rest before judgement, and the Lake of Fire, where unbelieves go, but this is not the hell that is perached. And the stay is not forever....

I don't believe in a vengeful god, I know I use to, without knowing it......

Magus, most of the church teach a loving and forgiving God, however they don't relise that they are actually teaching a vengeful one.....

A god that will sent anyone who does not believe to hell forever, and burn them with fire forever is a vengeful one......and that is what alot of churches teach so I can see where your coming from Philip Harris.......

The god that must of the churches teach is a myth, I agree, however not all christian believe in that god....there are some who believe in the real God....who Loves us all....and will be all in all....

The words of the Bible has been damage by translation, and human error....but the ture message is still there, for those who see it.....

And yes I do believe there is a Devil, and fallen angels...and that we did need saving.......

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Post by Magus »

DK, I'm sorry if you mentioned this in previous posts or not, but I was curious if there's any particular evidence that's shaped your belief in this matter, or if it's simply something that you belive?

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Post by Dark Knight »

Magus, you seem to have missed the hugely massive write up I did on the subject in this thread.....it's like a book..... :shock:

It starts way back on page 10 of this topic, the subject is called, "All WILL BE SAVED?", and I cover the topic for about 20 posts.....which are long....maybe I should post it in a new thread, so that more will see it...

or post about Christian Universalism in a new topic, instead of having it lost in this thread....

Anyway in brief, there are verses in the bible that support the Christian Universalism view that all people will get to heaven...and I am not alone in my view....

like:

Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who is the Savior of all men, especially those who are believers. These things command and teach. 1 Tim 4:10-11

Notice it does not say exclusive (only) believers, it says especially. Someone could say “I like all my friends, especially my Girlfriend”. It is not saying he is only the Savior of believers. What it does say is “Savior of all men” .

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 John 4:14 And we--we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son--Saviour of the world;

Notice the Son is the Saviour of the world, not just the saints, or the elect.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Notice what sin he takes away, the sin of the world, not just the sin of the saints, or the elect, he takes away the sin of the world.

So anyway you get the idea, Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world.....and that is the Good News, that you are to command and teach.....

However most of the church teach that unbelievers will end up in Hell......forever....

However they get this view because in the KJV of the bible it has the "forever" word, but this is a mistranslation....the word Aion has been mistranslated, the correct word to use is age....

Using the correct word we find outthey spent a period of time there.....and the place is "the lake of fire".....

Does that help....

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Post by Magus »

Yeah, like I said, I probably missed something.

:wink:

But thanks. That does help. I appreciate you going through it again for me.

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You misunderstand

Post by Philip Harris »

I have nothing against true Christians-It's just that I have not met one. You base all of your arguments on the Bible which you claim has mistranslations of words. So please clarify-which Bible is the one to use? Didn't Jesus say that neither he nor his Father were going to judge anyone? So it is okay to be punished for a little while? If the God you believe in is all knowing then It knew that we would screw up. But It went ahead anyway and It is still going to punish us a little-like how much? How Long? Sorry, my God doesn't punish its creations. It lets them live, learn, and evolve. I do believe in God DK. I believe that we all have an inner Christ that will not save us, but rather guide us to a higher level of consciousness. If there is a devil, who made it? If your god did then I suspect its motives.
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Re: You misunderstand

Post by Dark Knight »

Philip Harris wrote:I have nothing against true Christians-It's just that I have not met one.
So you have something against me, because you think I'm not a true Christian? And you have something against Christians who are not true Christians?. But then who is a true Christian according to you? Therefore what ever I say you will hold it against me, even thou I agree with you that people will not be burned in hell. :roll:
You base all of your arguments on the Bible which you claim has mistranslations of words. So please clarify-which Bible is the one to use?
I would say the “Young’s Literal Translation”……is a good one to use….or "Concordant Literal New Testament". In these verisons Aion is correctly translated Age. And they don't change words like gehenna and hades to Hell. These are different places...

As for basing all of my arguments on the Bible, there you be partly correct. It is true I based all of my arguments to Magus on the bible. He asked for evidence, and that is what I give, from the bible. However if you read the full 20 odd posts, you will see there are other arguments which are not based on bible verses, {however most are probably bible based in away} included in the subject "All WILL BE SAVED?". Also Magus is a church go, from what I know, so it is good to give a Bible argument to him. Also I am Christian, so I will use Bible based arguments. And there are infact a whole lot more Bible based arguments in the 20 odd posts I did. Also Christian Universalists are trying to educate Christians on the matter.…Remember it was a brief go over of 20 odd posts, which cover some 30 or more actual pages in word format…….

Magus I would hope that you give some thought to reading the whole subject…..anyway some more arguments, not using verses from the bible.

Picture yourself being burned and tortured without relief and without any hope for trillions of centuries. Well, of course, we humanly cannot imagine such torture for such a long period of time--our minds and our emotions are incapable of it. If any sane Christian could witness, even for a few hours or a few days, the kind of hideous torture presented by Christian doctrine, I believe he would seriously reconsider whether a loving God is capable of such sadistic punishment.

The doctrine of “eternal” torment misrepresents the character of God who is pure love and forgiveness. “Eternal” punishment says that God’s love will fail for most of His creatures, His forgiveness has an expiration date, and He either can’t or won’t show mercy beyond the grave. Even if someone in “hell” were to cry out for God to show mercy and beg Him to give them another chance, this hard and calloused god will simply turn away, ignoring their cries as if he’d never heard them.
From http://www.savior-of-all.com/

Which brings us to the problem, is God evil. Most Christians would say no, but most Christians believe that God is going to torture all unbelievers in the lake of Fire forever. This is afar greater torture, than any human has done to another human. More to the point when the person doing the torturing is usually said to be evil. Surely this kind of torture is most evil, more evil than any human has ever done. This teaching actually teaches that God is EVIL. Which is a major problem, God is not evil, therefore this is not the right teaching. By Dark Knight>>Me

“Such a man will say, you tell me God is good, but what acts are these you assign to Him? He is a father; but He brings into being myriads of hapless creatures, knowing that there is in store for them a doom unutterably awful. He calls into existence these creatures, whether they will or no; though the bottomless pit is yawning to receive them, and the flames ready to devour them. From “Christ Triumphant”,” by Thomas Allin


From the All WILL BE SAVED? Topic, you can refer there for further arguments…

Didn't Jesus say that neither he nor his Father were going to judge anyone?
He said: Joh 12:47 and if any one may hear my sayings, and not believe, I--I do not judge him, for I came not that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world.

Then he says this: Joh 12:48 `He who is rejecting me, and not receiving my sayings, hath one who is judging him, the word that I spake, that will judge him in the last day,

The answer then is that when he came he was not going to judge the world, or anyone, but later there would be Judgment. He did not rule out judgment later, when he was here on the earth, he was here to save the world, but later judgment.

For he also said: Joh 5:29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

So here we have him say that there will be judgement…..at some future point.
So it is okay to be punished for a little while? If the God you believe in is all knowing then It knew that we would screw up. But It went ahead anyway and It is still going to punish us a little-like how much? How Long?
Yes God knew we where going to screw up.

For how long?, I don’t know, it will be for an age, and no I don’t know how long that will be, I don’t know everything.

And the Lake of fire is a place of Divine purification and divine consecration. People are Cleansed. More on this on page 10 of DK talks, part 13 of the “All Will be Saved?” topic, last post on that page….or ask me about it....and I will comment....
If there is a devil, who made it? If your god did then I suspect its motives.
Yes my God did create the Devil.

You can suspect his motives all you like.

I may do a topic covering the Devil, at some point, or stuff to do with him, who knows. However there are several things that are incorrect on the teaching on the Devil. Which I will not get into in this post…..

However, God is in complete control, unlike some of the church teach, without know it. God limits what the devil can do.

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Post by Magus »

Yeah, I do plan to go back and read the others at some point.
I don’t know everything.
Man, but imagine how awesome it would be if you did.

8)

Interesting item of note: I'm currently reading William Peter Blattey's The Exorcist.

Oh, and I have another question: I've done some research on the manner when you note the differences between Hades, Hell and Gehenna. Now, what I've learned of the last was that it was a subterrainian place of condemnation. I'm confused with how the first two differ at all from one another, and, further, how they differ from Gehenna. They all seem to be describing the same thing, at least to me.

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Post by Dark Knight »

Hi Magus.....

You have to be careful what you read out there, over the years the thoughts and ideas on what Hades, Hell, Gehenna, sheol and Tartarus actually mean have been so different, that if two people talk about hades say, it is like they are talking about two totally different places....and then a third person will have a totally different idea.....about hades....

But most of the church these days have the one view that they are all really the same place, however they are not, only Hades and sheol are the same place....Hence when you read about them, they do seem to be the same place...

Sheol is the old testament name for hades....that was easy was it not.... :wink:

Sheol is a Hebrew word. Hades is Greek and Gehenna is also Greek.....

First Hell....
Hades, Gehenna, sheol and even Tartarus in some bibles have been translated to the english word Hell. This is what causes confusion and misunderstanding.....

Hence when you read someones views on Hades, Gehenna and Hell, they all do see to be the same place....and people do view them as the same place, however it does not mean they are...

If a person reads a bible that has all these words translated as hell, he will think of them as all the same place....

The common View:

Unbelievers go to Hell, and get burnt there with fire. Then there is Judgment. Then Unbelievers go back to Hell, and get burnt by fire forever.....

Hades is before Judgement and Gehenna after judgement so in this veiw they seem to be the same place....so they are both called Hell.....and are viewed as the same place a place of condemnation....but why have judgment, if they are already there?, why sentance them before you have judge them?

There are other verisons of the common view, and it all get very confusing quickly....

No wonder you are confused.....

A different View:

Hades is the place of rest before judgment. All people go there when they die, and they are all asleep. There is no punishment here, there is no fire, no one is being burnt. Everyone believers and unbelievers are asleep waiting judgment

Gehenna is different to Hades, no one is a sleep here. This is after judgment, and only unbelievers are here. Unbelievers are not here forever, but a period of time. This is the view that Gehenna is the "Lake of Fire". In the Lake of Fire, people are Cleansed, they go through purification. After the time in the "Lake of Fire" is over thse people go to Heaven.... :D

Tartarus: No humans get sent to Tartarus. Fallen Angels are currently in Tartarus, and are there waiting Judgment. I am not sure why these Fallen Angels are there, while demons get to go around in the world and are not locked up there. What ever they did, they are now locked up there for what ever reason, waiting there own judgment...

Does that help?

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Post by Magus »

O.k.... soo...

1) Earth: people live

2) Hades: people die, and come here

3) Hell: People are punished

4) Gehenna: People are cleansed with fire (Like the apostles were after Jesus rose?)

5) Heaven: everyone ends up here

6) Tartarus: Fallen angels retained here



Right?

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