Speculative Vision

Yes that's it Magus....

Gehenna: People are cleansed with fire (Like the apostles were after Jesus rose?)

I not sure it will be like what the apostles experienced....

How so?

Really, I have no problem with, dislike of or malice towards Christians, or any group for that matter. My issue has always been with the institutions, not the followers. A good person is a good person no matter their faith or lack thereof. That is one of the issues I have with some of the teachings. There are those who say that if you are not Christian then you are going to have a real problem with god. That is the god that I have a problem with. Are the Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and all the rest to be judged because they were brought up in a different tradition. They believe they are right and can equally quote their chapters and verses to prove their points. That is why I believe that the organizations are the problem-they divide people one against the other. But if you look at ALL of the so called holy books, they all have the same message of love. If you live by that rule, and that rule alone, then no god should have a problem with that.

My sentiments exactly!

I agree, Philip.

Hi Philip Harris

I disagree.....

I do agree that Christian institutions have there problems, and a number of Christian institutions do teach the wrong stuff, and divide people one against the other.....

You say that no god should have a problem with Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, because they all have the same message of love...so they should not be judged....that is your believe...and that is alright...however that is not my believe...

There are those who say that if you are not Christian then you are going to have a real problem with god. That is the god that I have a problem with.

Most Christians believe that God will Judge people. And most Christians believe that Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and all the other non-Christians out there good or bad will be lost in hell forever....so of course they say you will have a real problem with god.....
that is what they are told by most Christian organisations....and this is a real problem....

Some Christians don't what to believe it, but they keep going to the same organisations..... I use to believe that God would sent people to hell forever myself….until 6 months ago….

A very small number believe that all will get to Heaven in the end.....I read it was something like two percent of all Christians....no wonder there are problems...

However we still say there will be judgement.....

So you have a problem with any Christian, who believes in judgement….?

Also you mention Good people, saying they should not be judge, what of all the bad people?, should they not be judged?, should they get to heaven without judgement, should they be the same in heaven as on earth…going around being bad….?, should they not get to heaven?…..

Why do we believe in judgement:

First and for most, it says so in the Bible, should we Christians not follow what it says, should we destroy those parts of the bible, treat it as if it does not exist...it is there….

The bible does not just contain, the message of love, it also contains Gods judgements…as well as other stuff…..

In the old testament God judged people, anumber of nations where judged.....

God also judges his own people, take Israel, if you go through the bible God judged Israel a number of times, in fact he told them they could not enter the land for forty years....that was one of the judgements....there where many…they where and still are God's people....

If you are a parent, do you not punish your kids if they do something wrong?, you do not say “well done, good on you,”…..

Also it is not just about punishment, it is a process…..people are changed, you can not have people in heaven, go around causing problems, remember I’m saying everyone will get there, even the most evil person, these people surely need some correction…..

Also the bible has warnings for Christians. Just because you’re a Christian, does not mean you will miss out on judgement. Most Christians are not knowing of this….or don’t what to believe it…or think it does not apply to them……. The bible mentions a group of people who are followers, Christians, who go to the Lake of Fire……

In fact only a small number of people miss out, those people are called the elect, all the rest end up in the lake….. All those institutions are in for a surprise….in fact most Christians are if they keep believe in a god that will send people to hell forever…and most Christians would think of themselves as good people……..

Hopefully more Christians will start believing the true as I see it….

God is only selecting a small number of followers which will miss out on the lake of Fire.

This may see hard, but that is what I believe, you can have a problem with it if you what….

However that small number, is judge now, while they are alive….that is what it says also….. ……Judgement begins at the house of the Lord….

The elect? That sounds awefully 1600's Puritanical, doesn't it?

Dark Knight wrote: Most Christians believe that God will Judge people. And most Christians believe that Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and all the other non-Christians out there good or bad will be lost in hell forever....so of course they say you will have a real problem with god.....
that is what they are told by most Christian organisations....and this is a real problem....

And yet most Muslims believe that Allah will judge all the so called unbelievers, the Christain, Hindus, Jews etc etc, so how is that different to what you are saying ?

I have had this discussion with you before DK, while I think you are a jolly nice chap and I respect your rights to have these views, I sometimes wonder if you have actually questioned the ideology prior to taking it on board.

While I do believe in Christianity (to an extent) I do not believe it is quite as cut and shut as you indicate. Yes their may be a heaven and a hell, and yes the life you live on earth will probably determine your destination when you die, unfortunately their are grey areas, homosexuality for example, this has been proved to be a genetic issue rather than a psychological one. How can this be labeled a sin if a man (or woman, lets not be sexist) finds the physical presence of his (or her) gender preferable, to that of the opposite, when that same man (or woman) has been made by a Christian God (or indeed any other god, lets face it, they all - religions - have the same point of view regarding homosexuality)

How can we not question these principles, how can we not question a God who allows the human race to ruin his creation using unprecedented methods. If your roses have greenfly, what do you do about it ?

There are too many arguments surrounding the whole issue of religion, regardless of which one you feel the need to subscribe to and these arguments must be resolved if the human race is to survive the next millenium else it could be the downfall of us all !

On a final note, I have a friend who took on his local Kingdom Hall in order to recue his wife, it's a long story (and at times boring) but he created a website about his experiences, and some of his questions and research are documented there, I will try and find it and post it on here (Bmat permitting), it does make for some interesting reading...

http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/jodrellban ... eaflet.htm

is one of his websites

and

www.welcome.to/witnesscd

but watch out there are a number of popups

edit: It's been a while since I last looked at this site, which was originally (and still does - if you can find it) his and his wifes experiences dealing with the Witness society.

Of late he does seem to be waging a bit of a war on them. While there is nothing explicit or questionable on his website some may feel....disturbed or annoyed by his theories...

Bmat if you feel the need to remove these links then please do !

And what of Magus, then?



Just kidding. The links look fine to me.

DK-this is the true Church-remove your shoes for you are on holy ground. People discussing ideas, concepts and differing points of view is, in my mind, true religion. We do not need anyone TELLING us what to think or believe. NOT EVEN GOD! This is what free will is all about. The REAL GOD wants us to have these kinds of discussions (Actually IT has no Wants-that is human-rather the intent from the beginning was for us to experience the wonders of creation and to reach our own conclusions about the best way to live) in order to evolve and to find the TRUTH on OUR OWN. It is not truth unless you experience it for yourself. The child will always put a hand in the fire to discover the truth of hot.
We do agree on one thing-we will ALL be in what you term heaven. And, there is, metaphorically, a Lake of Fire. It is the Lake of Transformation (To refer to Alchemy) where all will be purified-not punished in the hit them with a stick sense-but where the negative thoughts are purified by TRUTH_WE ARE ALL ONE AND LOVE IS ALL THERE IS! Gay, straight,upside down, black, red, whit ORANGE-WE ARE ONE! AND I LOVE YOU!

Magus wrote:The elect? That sounds awefully 1600's Puritanical, doesn't it?

Does it?, well then the other names for the elect are, the Chosen, and the Saints....