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Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:39 pm
by Magus
So are you saying that only saints will avoid... cleansing?

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:13 pm
by Dark Knight
Hi MrB
And yet most Muslims believe that Allah will judge all the so called unbelievers, the Christain, Hindus, Jews etc etc, so how is that different to what you are saying ?
One Wonders if you read the whole post. .yes God will judge all the so called unbelievers....but I also said there will be believers judged as well....>>> This is what I said...>>>>
Dark Knight wrote:Also the bible has warnings for Christians. Just because you’re a Christian, does not mean you will miss out on judgement. Most Christians are not knowing of this….or don’t what to believe it…or think it does not apply to them……. The bible mentions a group of people who are followers, Christians, who go to the Lake of Fire……
These Christians, tell God, all the good things they think they have done and still, they get put in the Lake of Fire...

Also do the Muslims believe that Allah will let these unbelievers into Heaven after Judgement and cleansing?
I have had this discussion with you before DK, while I think you are a jolly nice chap and I respect your rights to have these views, I sometimes wonder if you have actually questioned the ideology prior to taking it on board.
Yes that is right, but much has changed....in the earlier discussions I use to think all unbelievers would be in hell forever...as most Christians in the world still do...

However I come to question what I believe, and have now changed my mind.....

I now believe everyone will get to heaven in the end. .after unbelievers have been judged and go through purification they get to heaven....This is a major change, however I'm still a Christian...
Yes their may be a heaven and a hell
I explain about the difference between Hell and Hades and Gehenna (Lake of Fire) etc, in an earlier post on page 12 of this topic...

So in my view the Hell that is perched by most churches does not exist, however the Lake of Fire does...
grey areas
There maybe grey areas, however that is not the issue. Everyone has sinned, so it does not matter if one area is a grey area, no doubt there are other sins that where done that are not grey areas…..

And no matter what you sins you will get to Heaven….in the end….

Also it is only those people Chosen by God that miss out on the Lake of Fire….
How can we not question these principles, how can we not question a God who allows the human race to ruin his creation using unprecedented methods.
Yes he allows, but not forever… In the bible he allowed the human race in the old testament to ruin things before the flood, then he judge the people.

And as we ruin the creation again, he will not let it continue….At some point he will step in, and make changes…..

Nearly all Christians believe in the second coming of Christ….

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:59 pm
by Dark Knight
Hi Philip Harris,
Philip Harris wrote:We do agree on one thing-we will ALL be in what you term heaven. And, there is, metaphorically, a Lake of Fire. It is the Lake of Transformation (To refer to Alchemy) where all will be purified-not punished in the hit them with a stick sense-but where the negative thoughts are purified by TRUTH_WE ARE ALL ONE AND LOVE IS ALL THERE IS! Gay, straight,upside down, black, red, whit ORANGE-WE ARE ONE! AND I LOVE YOU!
Yes that is what I have been saying, people in the Lake of Fire will be purified.....
We do not need anyone TELLING us what to think or believe. NOT EVEN GOD! This is what free will is all about.
Well we will have to disagree here.....

People don't have freewill, we have a will but it is not free....

You insist that everything depends on human choice. I reply, see how on the contrary man's choice is limited at every hand. First, man is born in sin; that is, certainly not wholly free. Take, next, the facts of life. In the first place man can exercise no choice at all as to the time and place of his birth - facts all important in deciding his religious belief, and through that his character; no choice as to the very many and very complex hereditary influences molding his entire life, though most often he knows it not; affecting for good or for evil every thought, every word, every act of his; no choice at all as to the original weakness of his nature, and its inherent tendency to evil. from Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin

Men make choices and decisions every day, but something (or Someone) creates a circumstance that causes these decisions. If I scratch my body (my own choice), I do it because I have an itch. If I eat a meal (my own choice), I do so because I am hungry. If I hurt another person (my choice), I do so because they did some harm to me. For every choice we make, there is a cause greater than the choice. It is your basic cause/effect principle. For every effect (in this case our choice), there is some cause that prompted the action. As no one would deny that God is sovereign over all things (including Satan), it is God who can change circumstances as He pleases to bring about the desired effect. http://www.savior-of-all.com/freewill.html

Freedom enough is granted to resist God for ages; freedom to suffer, and to struggle; to reap what has been sown, till, taught by experience, the will of the creature is bent to the will of the Creator. If all this does not involve a freedom that is real, though limited, then human words are vain as a vehicle for human thought. Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin


Page 10 of this discussion I covered Free will, in the topic "All WILL BE SAVED?" it is covered in part 9....for more info...
The REAL GOD wants us to have these kinds of discussions (Actually IT has no Wants-that is human-rather the intent from the beginning was for us to experience the wonders of creation and to reach our own conclusions about the best way to live) in order to evolve and to find the TRUTH on OUR OWN. It is not truth unless you experience it for yourself.
I would say not everyone will find the truth on there own, many people die before finding the truth, so then how do these people find it on there own....?

A child may be born to a prostitute, drug addict mother and a Mafia "hit man", alcoholic father who beats his wife and kids everyday. The child grows up in the ghetto, on the street, joins a gang and is murdered in a shootout at the age of 14.

Tell me how that child had free will?, tell me how he found the truth?

It is God who will show him the truth......

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:14 pm
by Dark Knight
Magus wrote:So are you saying that only saints will avoid... cleansing?
I have been saying only the saints will avoid the "Lake of Fire",

However there is one other group that avoids the lake, these people are the good people who will be alive during the millenium reign of Christ....{A future age to come}

All the rest go to the Lake of Fire for cleansing...good or bad...

However I would not say the saints avoid cleansing, these people have sin, and need cleansing of all dross, the unwanted stuff.....

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:33 am
by Magus
But isn't the lake of fire the cleansing? How can they avoid one, but not the other?

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:06 am
by MrB
One Wonders if you read the whole post. .yes God will judge all the so called unbelievers....but I also said there will be believers judged as well....>>> This is what I said...>>>>

Dark Knight wrote:
Also the bible has warnings for Christians. Just because you’re a Christian, does not mean you will miss out on judgement. Most Christians are not knowing of this….or don’t what to believe it…or think it does not apply to them……. The bible mentions a group of people who are followers, Christians, who go to the Lake of Fire……
You're missing the point here, yes, the Bible has warnings for Christians, the two operative words here being "Bible" and "Christians" by definition, if you follow the teachings of the bible then you are Christian, but Islam is not about the Bible, it is about the Quoran (SP?), so their beliefs aren't the same as yours (or the Christian). While still essentially the same, they are two different points of view.
You insist that everything depends on human choice. I reply, see how on the contrary man's choice is limited at every hand. First, man is born in sin; that is, certainly not wholly free. Take, next, the facts of life. In the first place man can exercise no choice at all as to the time and place of his birth - facts all important in deciding his religious belief, and through that his character; no choice as to the very many and very complex hereditary influences molding his entire life, though most often he knows it not; affecting for good or for evil every thought, every word, every act of his; no choice at all as to the original weakness of his nature, and its inherent tendency to evil. from Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin
So if man does not have Free Will, I do not understand how he can be born in Sin, being born wasn't his choice, how can that be labeled a sin ?
Men make choices and decisions every day, but something (or Someone) creates a circumstance that causes these decisions. If I scratch my body (my own choice), I do it because I have an itch. If I eat a meal (my own choice), I do so because I am hungry. If I hurt another person (my choice), I do so because they did some harm to me. For every choice we make, there is a cause greater than the choice. It is your basic cause/effect principle. For every effect (in this case our choice), there is some cause that prompted the action. As no one would deny that God is sovereign over all things (including Satan), it is God who can change circumstances as He pleases to bring about the desired effect. http://www.savior-of-all.com/freewill.html
This seems very dodgy ground to me, if I have an itch and I scratch it, seems a heavily weighted argument to me, and completely unlike shall I walk up to a complete stranger and stab him in the eye, simply because I do not have the free will to not do that ! in addition, on reading this a second time, is this person suggesting that a man who decides to walk up to a stranger and stab him in the eye does so because thats what God wants him to do ? erm... the words Psychopathic tendencies spring to mind here !
A child may be born to a prostitute, drug addict mother and a Mafia "hit man", alcoholic father who beats his wife and kids everyday. The child grows up in the ghetto, on the street, joins a gang and is murdered in a shootout at the age of 14.

Tell me how that child had free will?, tell me how he found the truth?
and indeed, tell me what sin that child created, when it was born, by no fault of its own, to those parents, how can it be right that the child pays for the sins of its parents...

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:39 am
by Grand Evander
I may not be a fervent fan of religion, but I feel I can still contribute to this conversation. From my knowledge, the concept of heaven emerged only some time after the creation of Judaism (in The Book of Job, Job refers to having his soul sent down to Shiol (sp?). The Book of Job attempts to tackle the problem of inexplicable suffering, and ultimately concludes that he who understand G-d understands that he can't understand G-d (a kind of logical paradox I admit).

The creation of original sin began with St. Augustine, who was the first person to introduce the concept (in literature it can be seen in The City of God). Many have wondered exactly what original sin is (for instance, it can't be the ability to sin because Adam sinned before the fall from Eden), though it is such a prevalent part of our religion. From my understanding of Augustine's interpretation, it refers to children now being subject to a "2nd death" and human beings becoming victims to their base instincts (Augustine hated sexual relations). The 2nd death refers to the loss of eternal life in heaven for the immortal soul.

This has always been troublesome for me, because later adaptations of Christianity, such a Protestantism, say that Jesus' death allowed for people to be eligible for heaven (Martin Luther in his debate with Erasmus of Rotterdam, I believe). This basically says to me (and correct me if I am wrong) that, prior to Jesus, no person was eligible for heaven, and was fatalistically doomed through the accident of birth. True there was the harrowing of hell, where Jesus rescued the paternal leaders of Judaism after his death, but still there was a long period of time when human beings, however righteous, couldn't be saved. One could argue that they didn't know how to be saved, since they didn't have access to the sacraments, etc... but it's always troubled me.

When it comes to salvation, the Quran has a much more interesting interpretation. Only about 10 pages in a standard version of the Quran actually discusses life after death (from my reading Sura 56). There are the companions of the left hand, who are doomed to burn, and the companions of the right hand, who are granted salvation. Of the companions of the right hand, there are two gradations, those nearest to Allah (the extremely righteous like Muhammad) and those who are rewarded so famously (as well have heard). The interesting aspect of Islam's view of divine judgment is that it's a lot more hazy than Christendom. Allah weighs a person entire life rather than just aspects from it when deciding an individual's fate (allows for grey areas).

My personal belief, though I'm not one to invest heavily in Intelligent Design, is that divine will and fate do not always have to be mutually exclusive, if one qualifies the term 'fate.' I look at G-d's relationship to human beings as being like the tinkerer to a toy soldier (a much more relaxed version of Newton's clockmaker). G-d winds us up, analogous to giving us life, and then lets us go. We'll stop eventually, he can tell where we're going, but he's not actually influencing where we go. I apologize if this seems an oversimplification of the whole issue. New developments in science that suggest our personalities, talents, and proclivities are in part influenced by our genes, somewhat complicates the issue.

I've always had a problem with divine judgment since the notion of an absolute morality is problematic for me. Kant had attempted to codify an absolute morality (The Metaphysics of Morals), but in the end he had to abstract morality into such generalized terms that you couldn't actually think of an action that didn't violate the code in any circumstance. Societies have different notions of what is and is not acceptable behavior; moral codes develop to reflect the society in which they are enforced, and we have seen aspects of these moral codes become antiquated (Judaic texts discusses the proper treatment of slaves at some point).

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:41 am
by Grand Evander
Sorry for the long post... I didn't realize how lengthy my response was until after I had submitted. :(

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:44 pm
by Dark Knight
Magus wrote:But isn't the lake of fire the cleansing? How can they avoid one, but not the other?
The Lake of Fire is the place of cleansing for all the others...

However the saints work goes though Fire to be purified....

I think you can have a seperated cleansing for the saints....

The saints have to come to Love everyone, and it is a hard thing to do....the process would start while they are alive...and no doubt get finished when they are raised...

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:48 pm
by Dark Knight
Hi MrB
MrB wrote:
One Wonders if you read the whole post. .yes God will judge all the so called unbelievers....but I also said there will be believers judged as well....>>> This is what I said...>>>>

Dark Knight wrote:
Also the bible has warnings for Christians. Just because you’re a Christian, does not mean you will miss out on judgement. Most Christians are not knowing of this….or don’t what to believe it…or think it does not apply to them……. The bible mentions a group of people who are followers, Christians, who go to the Lake of Fire……
You're missing the point here, yes, the Bible has warnings for Christians, the two operative words here being "Bible" and "Christians" by definition, if you follow the teachings of the bible then you are Christian, but Islam is not about the Bible, it is about the Quoran (SP?), so their beliefs aren't the same as yours (or the Christian). While still essentially the same, they are two different points of view.
True I missed the point, correct….there are different points of view..However I would say my point of view is different to most Christains point of view...
MrB wrote:
You insist that everything depends on human choice. I reply, see how on the contrary man's choice is limited at every hand. First, man is born in sin; that is, certainly not wholly free. Take, next, the facts of life. In the first place man can exercise no choice at all as to the time and place of his birth - facts all important in deciding his religious belief, and through that his character; no choice as to the very many and very complex hereditary influences molding his entire life, though most often he knows it not; affecting for good or for evil every thought, every word, every act of his; no choice at all as to the original weakness of his nature, and its inherent tendency to evil. from Christ Triumphant”, by Thomas Allin
So if man does not have Free Will, I do not understand how he can be born in Sin, being born wasn't his choice, how can that be labeled a sin ?
You misunderstand>>> Being born is not a sin, and born in sin is not labeling being born a sin. However I can see how you could read it that way…We seem to be going over the same ground….The way I understand it is this: We are born sinners…. Man is born With his own nature inclined to evil…>>>
MrB wrote:
A child may be born to a prostitute, drug addict mother and a Mafia "hit man", alcoholic father who beats his wife and kids everyday. The child grows up in the ghetto, on the street, joins a gang and is murdered in a shootout at the age of 14.

Tell me how that child had free will?, tell me how he found the truth?
and indeed, tell me what sin that child created, when it was born, by no fault of its own, to those parents, how can it be right that the child pays for the sins of its parents...
I never said he did create a sin when he was born, and I never said he was paying for the sins of his parents…he is not…..why are we going over ground I never said anything about…???..and going over old ground at that….???

He is in fact paying for no sins, let me get this right for the first time in this thread. All sins have been paid for already!!!! So why do people, most in fact Christians, say that people will be punished again for the sins that they have done, when payment in full has been given already….The person in the lake of fire is being purified, he is going through a process, all negative thoughts are purified by truth. At the end of the process he will know what love is. He will know God loves him, and he will love God.
MrB wrote:
Men make choices and decisions every day, but something (or Someone) creates a circumstance that causes these decisions. If I scratch my body (my own choice), I do it because I have an itch. If I eat a meal (my own choice), I do so because I am hungry. If I hurt another person (my choice), I do so because they did some harm to me. For every choice we make, there is a cause greater than the choice. It is your basic cause/effect principle. For every effect (in this case our choice), there is some cause that prompted the action. As no one would deny that God is sovereign over all things (including Satan), it is God who can change circumstances as He pleases to bring about the desired effect. http://www.savior-of-all.com/freewill.html
This seems very dodgy ground to me, if I have an itch and I scratch it, seems a heavily weighted argument to me, and completely unlike shall I walk up to a complete stranger and stab him in the eye, simply because I do not have the free will to not do that ! in addition, on reading this a second time, is this person suggesting that a man who decides to walk up to a stranger and stab him in the eye does so because thats what God wants him to do ? erm... the words Psychopathic tendencies spring to mind here !
Maybe your should read it a third time….saying man does not have freewill, is not the same as saying he has no will. Man has choices, but they are limited, ..if you have a knife in your hand and a complete stranger goes by, you can stab him, or not stab him, your choice. However if you don’t have a knife and you want to stab him right at that time, with a knife, how then do you do it?
on reading this a second time, is this person suggesting that a man who decides to walk up to a stranger and stab him in the eye does so because thats what God wants him to do ?
God is not ruling our every move, he is not going to decide for me when I get up in the morning, it is my choice. However when God wants to bring about a desired effect he will.

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:19 pm
by Dark Knight
Hi Grand Evander

I can see that you do not know what a long post is, that to me was not a long post, I have done way longer in the past…

Shiol (sp?). >>> Sheol
The 2nd death refers to the loss of eternal life in heaven for the immortal soul.
That is what the church teaches but this is incorrect. The 2nd death is the lake of Fire. And it has nothing to do with the “loss of eternal life in heaven for the immortal soul”. Everyone will be immortal in the end, and live in heaven. However some get there first. Those in the lake of Fire miss out on heaven for a period of time.
This basically says to me (and correct me if I am wrong) that, prior to Jesus, no person was eligible for heaven, and was fatalistically doomed through the accident of birth. True there was the harrowing of hell, where Jesus rescued the paternal leaders of Judaism after his death, but still there was a long period of time when human beings, however righteous, couldn't be saved. One could argue that they didn't know how to be saved, since they didn't have access to the sacraments, etc... but it's always troubled me.
Did Jesus go to hell?, hell no! Hades is the place of the dead before judgement {not hell}, and people are asleep there. He never went to hell, this is false teaching that has come about. He went to Hades, and was asleep there....

They where always going to be saved, that was the plan…..

Jesus pained the price for everyone’s sins. These people who died before Jesus came will get to heaven also. God knows how to save people…….
When it comes to salvation, the Quran has a much more interesting interpretation. Only about 10 pages in a standard version of the Quran actually discusses life after death (from my reading Sura 56). There are the companions of the left hand, who are doomed to burn, and the companions of the right hand, who are granted salvation.
Everyone in my view is granted salvation, and no one is doomed to burn….
The interesting aspect of Islam's view of divine judgment is that it's a lot more hazy than Christendom. Allah weighs a person entire life rather than just aspects from it when deciding an individual's fate (allows for grey areas).
It does seem the Quran and the Christendom are they much the same. With those people on the left burning. And this is what Christians are told, by churches. However there are a few Christians like me who believe no one will burn, and that everyone will get to heaven, including those on the left.

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:50 pm
by Grand Evander
Oh, I personally am of a similar opinion, Dark Knight. I too believe everyone is ultimately granted salvation. To delve a bit into my personal philosophy (sorry for the digression), I believe that we all are meant to appreciate life with concern more towards achieving happiness than abiding by a codified set of morals. I invest heavily in the grey area. The development of a conscience can be seen as necessary to having a functioning society, but basing one's actions upon what can be considered a giant list of bifurcations is troublesome in my opinion.

I am reminded of Sigmund Freud's Civilization and its Discontent, wherein he suggests that a moral conscience is the gradual internalization of parental influence embodied as a system of valuations upon certain actions (i.e. stealing = bad, manners = good). A natural extension of his conclusions is that G-d can be seen as the ultimate externalization of this collective internalized conscience that serves to regulate an entire society. I disagree with the implications of such a view, since I believe G-d has a greater design for us than to see if we can follow a rule book. I consider such aspects of organized religion as paralyzing for the individual and releasing for the society: the society funcitons more smoothly, allowing for progress, while the individual occassionally hesitates... I believe each person should strive to be able to live with themselves and that's a good start (perhaps being too dogmatic).

I'd like to believe Christianity is egalitarian and ultimately something positive that augments our lives. I don't like thinking of John Edwards' Sinners in the Hands of an Angry G-d when reaffirming my faith. I am a fan of defining my own belief system rather than listening to individual interpretations (not saying there is no value in these interpretations). After all, Martin Luther was the one who said "Sin powerfully for G-d can only forgive a hardy sinner."

I'm intereted in hearing more of your thoughts.