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Dark Knight
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Post by Dark Knight »

Grand Evander wrote: Along the same vein, the current belief among scholars is that the Old Testament was compiled by for authors, each given a single letter for identification. For instance, there is a major change in writing style between Genesis:1 and the rest of Genesis, and also a great amount of redundacy in explaining creation between Genesis:1 and Genesis:2. Any thoughts?
I have not heard of this one.....maybe I should look into it....but my thinking is that, where we know who the author is meant to be of a book, then he is the Author, end of story. For instance it is known that the Author of Genesis is Moses. Why should we disagree with that?

All of Genesis was written by Moses, that is my thinking on that, and I have no reason to think otherwise....Just because he changed his style does not mean it was written by someone else....

Also just because he repeat himself, does not mean someone else write it....

maybe I should find a list and post it here.....

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Post by Dark Knight »

Scholars have many believes, of the ones I have heard of so far, I don't believe any of them.....but I have not heard of all of there believes so there could be some I agree with...

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Post by Grand Evander »

The theory to which I referred was taught to me in a classical philosophy course, and then again in a classical literature course that was part of the same sequence. Technically, there were 5 authors according to this theory, but D only contributed to Deuteronomy.


For reference:

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/jepdr.htm

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Post by Dark Knight »

A list of Authors of the books of the Bible put together by me with info from http://www.amazingbible.org/Documents/B ... istics.htm

OLD TESTAMENT

1 Genesis. by Moses
2 Exodus by Moses
3 Leviticus by Moses
4 Numbers by Moses
5 Deuteronomy by Moses

6 Joshua by Joshua, or perhaps Phinehas, Eleazar, Samuel, or Jeremiah
7 Judges by Unknown, a contemporary of Samuel, Samuel, Phinehas, Hezekiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Ezra
8 Ruth by Unknown, Samuel by tradition, Hezekiah, Ezra
9 First Samuel by Uncertain, Samuel and Abiathar, a son of the prophets, or possibly others
10 Second Samuel by Uncertain, Samuel and Abiathar, a son of the prophets, or possibly others
11 First Kings by Unknown, perhaps a Jewish captive; Jeremiah by tradition
12 Second Kings by Unknown, perhaps a Jewish captive; Jeremiah by tradition; probably the same person that wrote 1st Kings
13 First Chronicles by Ezra by tradition
14 Second Chronicles by Ezra by tradition
15 Ezra by Probably Ezra
16 Nehemiah. By Nehemiah and later scribes
17 Esther. by Unknown, a Jew who lived in Persia; not Mordecai-10:2,3
18 Job by Unknown, perhaps Job, Moses, Elihu, Solomon, or Isaiah
19 Psalms by 72 credited to David, but he may not be the author of some. 12 to Asaph, 12 to sons of Korah, 2 to Solomon (72 and 127), 1 to Ethan, and 1 to Moses. All, but 34, bear some title as a superscription; about 50 anonymous. Titles based on traditions.
20 Proverbs by Solomon—1 to 22:16; Agur and mother of King Lemuel latter portions of Pv 30, 31? Solomon also credited with 25 to 29; author unknown—22:17 to 24:34 and 30:1 to 31:31
21 Ecclesiastes. By Unknown. Solomon by tradition; however ,many believe it was someone else.

22 Song of Solomon by Perhaps Solomon by tradition
23 Isaiah BY: Isaiah

24 Jeremiah BY: Jeremiah, recorded by his scribe Baruch

25 Lamentations By: Jeremiah-2 Chr 35:25
26 Ezekiel By: Ezekiel
27 Daniel By: Daniel
28 Hosea By: Hosea
29 Joel by: Joel
30 Amos By: Amos
31Obadiah By: Obadiah
32 Jonah by: Jonah
33 Micah by Micah
34 Nahum by: Nahum.
35 Habakkuk. By Habakkuk.
36 Zephaniah by Zephaniah
37 Haggai by Haggai
38 Zechariah by Zechariah
39 Malachi. By Malachi.


THE NEW TESTAMENT

40 Matthew by Matthew
41 Mark by Mark
42 Luke by Luke
43 John by The apostle John
44 Acts by Luke (the physician). He also wrote the Gospel of Luke at an earlier time.
45 Romans by Paul
46 First Corinthians by Paul
47 Second Corinthians by Paul
48 Galatians by Paul
49 Ephesians by Paul
50 Philippians by Paul
51 Colossians by Paul
52 First Thessalonians by Paul
53 Second Thessalonians by Paul
54 First Timothy by Paul
55 Second Timothy by Paul
56 Titus by Paul
57 Philemon by Paul
58 Hebrews by Unknown, possibly Paul, Apollos, Barnabas, Luke, Timothy, Aquila and Priscilla, Silas, Aristion, or Philip
59 James by James, the brother of Christ (unlikely to be James, the son of Zebedee, as was martyred about A.D. 44)
60 First Peter by Peter
61 Second Peter by Peter
62 First John by John the apostle
63 Second John by John the apostle
64 Third John by John the apostle
65 Jude by Jude, the brother of James and Jesus
66 Revelation by John the apostle

Does not include the apocryphal books.....

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Post by Dark Knight »

Hi Grand Evander, thanks for the link....I took a look, and then a quick look around the rest of the site.....

I would say I disagree as I have said....
Moses write the first five books....that is what I believe...

And looking at what is on the rest of the Deley site, I would say I would disagree with almost everything there, if not everything......

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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

Well, well, well. What have I stumbled into here. I do so love a religious conversation although after peeking through the postings I’m not sure I have the knowledge to fully participate. But I’m going to give it a try.

First a little background. I am a Unitarian and belong to a Unitarian\Universalist Church. Just to clarify, I am not a Universalist but a Unitarian, there is a bit of a difference.

Unitarians do not believe in the trinity. Rather than believing that Jesus was God on Earth, they believe that Jesus was a man, the son of God, but not God himself. Universalist do not believe in Hell, they believe in universal salvation. I never did by that one. But the churches merged awhile back into the Unitarian\Universalist Association.

For a very detailed hard to read explanation of Unitarian Christianity try
UNITARIAN CHRISTIANITY
By William Ellery Channing
Delivered at the Ordination of Rev. Jared Sparks in The First Independent Church of Baltimore on May 5, 1819.
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC ... arian.html
Most regular Christians call us a cult and we have always been considered heretics. But check out this list of famous UUs. You might find it surprising.
Abigail Adams*
John Adams*
John Quincy Adams
Ethan Allen
Chester Bliss Bowles
Harold Hitz Burton
John C. Calhoun
Joseph S. Clark
William S. Cohen
Paul H. Douglas
Emily Taft Douglas
Thomas H. Eliot
Edward Everett
Millard Fillmore*
Benjamin Franklin*
Horace Greeley*
Hannibal Hamlin
Thomas Jefferson*
Edward S. Mason
Wade McCree
Maurine Neuberger
Lucius Paige
Thomas Paine
William J. Perry
Paul Revere*
Josiah Quincy
Elliot L. Richardson
Leverett Saltonstall
Francis George Shaw
Col. Robert Gould Shaw
Adlai Stevenson
William Howard Taft*
Daniel Webster*
For more info, check out our Website.

http://www.uua.org/

So, what are we talking about?
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Post by Dark Knight »

Welcome to the topic.....Trey

What you have stumbled on is my religious topic....

it does not matter if you don't have the "knowledge to fully participate", you can still participate....

This topic has gone through times when I am the only one posting, but then again, there have been a high number of readers, over the whole period......

Having recently findout about Universalist, and searching for info on Universalist stuff, I did find some info on Unitarian and know it is different......

I don't believe in the trinity myself anymore, however I use to when the topic started.

I now do belief that Jesus is the Son of God and not God himself.....
Universalist do not believe in Hell, they believe in universal salvation. I never did by that one.
Did you miss the posts, where I said clearly I was a Universalist, or do you know?

And I don't believe in Hell.....

About 9 months ago, after the topic started, I findout about Universalism.....Shortly after that I did buy into it.......and I have done a number of posts on it....starting on page 9....
Most regular Christians call us a cult and we have always been considered heretics.
If you read the later posts you will find I now don't agree with most regular Christians......

I use to when the topic started, but not anymore.....

As for what we are talking about, well, good question....

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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

Cool, a Universalist to bounce questions off of. I must admit that I didn’t filter through all the pages of this thread and kind of just inserted myself into it. I will take a look at page 9 and see what you have to say.

Are you a member of the UU Church? We have a few Universalists in mine but most are Unitarian with a scattering of Atheists and Pagans. A whole lot of ex-Catholics to tell the truth. I was raised Southern Baptist but just couldn’t hang with the strict interpretation.

I would love to discuss Heaven and Hell and why you don’t believe in Hell as I am a bit fascinated by the concept. I reject the idea of absolutes and believe in universal balance so I do not believe that you can have a Heaven unless there is a Hell. But I also view the concept of Heaven and Hell to be representations of absolutes. Since I don’t believe that absolutes actually exist, except as conceptual ideals, I would say I don’t believe in the physical manifestation of either. But as concepts, both exist, if for no other reason than to give us the opportunity to discuss them.

Possibly, I will find the answers to my questions by reading some of your earlier posts but if you have comments on the above I’m all ears.
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Post by Dark Knight »

Well on page 9 I start my 19 post {18 part} All WILL BE SAVED? discussion....enjoy....you can bring up any part for further discussion....
Are you a member of the UU Church?


No......
I would love to discuss Heaven and Hell and why you don’t believe in Hell as I am a bit fascinated by the concept.
Well the words Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, and Tartarus have all been translated into the single word "Hell"

I discuss the differences on page 12......

I would say I don't believe in a universal balance....

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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

I am reading your articles now, they're a lot to get through so give me a little time.

I have noticed that you seem to take the bible literally in many instances. Is this a true statement? Do you consider the bible to be the inerrant word of God or a work of man inspired by God?
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Ok, I’m now half way through your Mangum Opus and I understand more why your interpretation of Universalism was sounding different than that of my church. You are a Christian Universalists rather than a regular Universalist. The Unitarians are also broken into the two groups, Unitarians and Christian Unitarians. Both groups of both religions are within the church but the majority are regular instead of the purely Christian variety. Wikipedia has a great write up on Universalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism

This is regular Universalism:
In comparative religion, universalism is the belief that true and valuable insights are available in many of the religious traditions which have grown up in various human cultures. It posits that a spiritually aware person will respect religious traditions other than his own and will be open to learning from them. It does not deny that immersion in one tradition is a useful anchor for an individual's spiritual development. While it celebrates the richness and value to be found among humankind's religious traditions, it does not necessarily deny that some things done in the name of religion, and some religious practices, are not constructive. But it distinguishes itself from the view that there is only one true faith, one uniquely chosen people, or one final prophet superseding all others. The name Universalist refers to certain religious denominations of universalism, which as a core principle adhere to standards and rituals which are convergent rather than divergent, often espousing themselves as alternatives to denominations based on dogmatic or factionalized differences;
This is Christian Universalism
Universalists are those who believe God to be so loving that all will be reconciled to God. Anything short of "universal salvation," Universalists in the 18th century thought, would fail to comport with the image of God as all-powerful and all-knowing. The doctrine can be traced to the earliest centuries of Church history, and was taught by both Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa. Universalists in 18th and 19th century North America often believed that the punishment for sin was simply the fate of having to live the life of a sinner, and that this was sufficient and "just retribution" for such conduct. Others believed in something closer to purgatory, while others said it was beyond the understanding of mortals to know what would ultimately transpire before all dwell in "final harmony" with God.
While I consider myself to be Christian most Christians would not and some have accused me of being more Muslim because I believe the Prophet was sent for the children of Ishmael same as Christ was sent for the Christians. I also do not believe in taking religion literally but rather as the historical attempt of mankind to conceptualize ideals far beyond his understanding.

Take all your talk of Hell and the Lake of Fire. Yes, the word Hell is a compost of several concepts, translations and interpretations. I get that. But I have never understood mankinds insistence on describing the indescribable. Everyone aggress that God is beyond our ability to comprehend, so why would we be able to comprehend Heaven, Hell or the version of Purgatory that you describe.

I look at it like this. An ant is crawling along the ground. I bend down and let it crawl up on my finger and then bring it up to my eye to get a better look. Then I place it back on the ground. One of his buddies says, “Wow, what was that?” How would the ant describe the experience? Do you think it would be an accurate description or would it be colored by the perspective and conceptual abilities of the ant?

Here is another. When you stand at the base of a skyscraper and look up, what is your perspective? When you see the same skyscraper from the edge of town how does it look? And when you are flying above town in an airplane how do you see it? All of the perspectives are real and a description of them would be accurate to a point, but would they would also be completely different and missing much of the detail.

Our attempts to understand and describe the divine are similar but increased on an order of magnitude. So while your obviously well researched and informed study on the subject probably touches on some truths, I am sure it is no closer to the actual truth than the ants description of me to his buddy. Of course the same can be said about what I think and everyone else as well.

The first step to spiritual freedom is realizing that you will not achieve understanding in this lifetime and that all truths you uncover will only be small pieces of a whole, like bits of colored cloth that when placed together will create a wondrous tapestry. We can see the wonder and majesty but we just can’t quite make out the picture.

Just a few of my thoughts.
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Post by Dark Knight »

I am reading your articles now, they're a lot to get through so give me a little time.
Take all the time you need, I know it’s a lot to get through…
I have noticed that you seem to take the bible literally in many instances. Is this a true statement?
Yes that is the truth……!!!!!!
Do you consider the bible to be the inerrant word of God or a work of man inspired by God?
Well I use to think of it at times inspired by God, through the Holy Spirit…. However now I think it is more the inerrant word of God…. I mean man write the bible, but Gods influence on them, made it inerrant….
Ok, I’m now half way through your Mangum Opus
WOW good going……
You are a Christian Universalists rather than a regular Universalist.
Nailed it…..correct….
I also do not believe in taking religion literally but rather as the historical attempt of mankind to conceptualize ideals far beyond his understanding.
Many have said this, you are not the first, and you will no doubt not be the last….

However I will say again, what I have said in the past, if God wants you to understand, then you will…..

Lets take some examples

God tells Noah to build the ark and he understands and goes about building it…

God tells Moses what to do and he understands….and so on it goes through the bible….
The first step to spiritual freedom is realizing that you will not achieve understanding in this lifetime and that all truths you uncover will only be small pieces of a whole, like bits of colored cloth that when placed together will create a wondrous tapestry.
I do believe some can achieve understanding in this lifetime

The only ones to achieve understanding in this lifetime are the ones who are chosen….by God….

If God wants you to understand you will....
Just a few of my thoughts.
You are free to post your thoughts……

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