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Dark Knight
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Post by Dark Knight »

Well it makes sense yes, but appart from agree on that, we will have to disagree.....

You can not compare the burning bush and the Sun as a god....the two are different....

Moses saw a burning bush and God spoke to him from it... However he was not describing the divine as a burning bush... he was describing what he saw... which was a burning bush....he did not say that the divine was the burning bush....and God spoke to Moses many times after that, however not from the burning bush, Moses knew God was not a burning bush.... and later on when God spoke to him from a mountain top, Moses did not say God is mountain top.....

That is how I look at that....

What I am saying is that the person who says the Sun is a god is not describing the samething.....

He is not just describing the divine as like the Sun, he is saying the divine is the Sun......and ancient Egyptians had many Sun gods....

If they where describe his shining radiance as the great Sun, then that is different, but no they where saying the Sun is a god.... not like God..... there is a difference...

can you see it now...

It is like this....

There are two groups.. one has seen skyscraper.. the other has not... Someone from the group who have seen skyscraper goes to the town of the people who have not seen skyscraper... went he gets there he mentions skyscraper
The leader of the town points and says "we have many skyscrapers", however he points to a one story house... clearly this group have no idea what skyscraper is really like....

This is the way I see it...

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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

You can not compare the burning bush and the Sun as a god....the two are different....
Oh, but I can.
Moses saw a burning bush and God spoke to him from it... However he was not describing the divine as a burning bush... he was describing what he saw... which was a burning bush....he did not say that the divine was the burning bush....and God spoke to Moses many times after that, however not from the burning bush, Moses knew God was not a burning bush.... and later on when God spoke to him from a mountain top, Moses did not say God is mountain top.....
All this shows is that Moses had a better understanding of what he was seeing. Imagine a more primitive person seeing the same thing, is it not logical to assume he would see the burning bush as a god rather than a mechanism for communication. This is what I meant by being limited by their intellectual ability. And I wonder, what would modern man think of a burning bush speaking to him. How would he interpret such a thing? How would you?
can you see it now...
Nope, but there is no need for me to do so.
It is like this....

There are two groups.. one has seen skyscraper.. the other has not... Someone from the group who have seen skyscraper goes to the town of the people who have not seen skyscraper... went he gets there he mentions skyscraper
The leader of the town points and says "we have many skyscrapers", however he points to a one story house... clearly this group have no idea what skyscraper is really like....
Ok, this time I must cry foul! This analogy is completely wrong. It relies on the belief that the divine only revels himself to a select few and I don’t believe that for a minute. The divine is always there for everyone to see, always. There is never a moment when the divine is not present and not perceivable by those who choose to see. I know you believe this as well, it is the foundation of the Christian faith.

God is everywhere, I see him every time I look into my daughter’s eyes. I felt his presence when I watched porpoises play in the bow wake of the ship I was sailing on. I always feel closer to him when I am close to nature and any of his creatures. So I know he is always there.

Let me illustrate the concept with a personal experience. When we moved to Seattle for a couple years my wife saw Mount Rainer for the first time. For her it was a religious experience, she truly felt the power of the divine just by seeing that mountain. Me, all I saw was a big pimple looking chunk of rock. You see, she was born and raised in the mid-west and had never seen real mountains before. Me, I have partied in the shadows of the Swiss Alps. So when she saw purple mountains majesty I just saw a medium sized volcano with a white top.

You see, God is always there and always talking, but we can only hear that which we are capable of hearing, and for each it is different.
This is the way I see it...
And the way you see it is correct, for you. It is the way that God speaks to you and they way you were meant to understand. But each of us will receive our message in a different manner. What is important is not that we understand the message for others, but that we understand that they have their message and it is just as correct as our own.

And that is the way I see it…
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Post by Dark Knight »

Well this is one of the reasons there is a low number of people discussing with me… You see once I come out with some strong views, they stop replying… However there is usually a good number of readers….

So let me get started with one of my strong view reply’s…
Dark Knight wrote:You can not compare the burning bush and the Sun as a god....the two are different....
Oh, but I can.
Well you may be able to, but to me they are different….and it seems you can not see that…
Dark Knight wrote:Moses saw a burning bush and God spoke to him from it... However he was not describing the divine as a burning bush... he was describing what he saw... which was a burning bush....he did not say that the divine was the burning bush....and God spoke to Moses many times after that, however not from the burning bush, Moses knew God was not a burning bush.... and later on when God spoke to him from a mountain top, Moses did not say God is mountain top.....
All this shows is that Moses had a better understanding of what he was seeing. Imagine a more primitive person seeing the same thing, is it not logical to assume he would see the burning bush as a god rather than a mechanism for communication. This is what I meant by being limited by their intellectual ability. And I wonder, what would modern man think of a burning bush speaking to him. How would he interpret such a thing? How would you?
I see that you don’t see what I am saying… Actually it shows a lot more than that, God give Moses understanding… It is not about how primitive the person is, that has nothing to do with it… Moses lived for many years in Egypt, and then he left… When he left after killing someone, he did not go to a more advanced society. The Egyptians remember had the sun gods, and that is where he lived for many years….If you call them primitive then is he also not primitive?

How I would interpret such a thing, well if God give me understanding, then I would do as well as Moses….
Dark Knight wrote:can you see it now...
Nope, but there is no need for me to do so.


I cry foul… While there is no need for you to do so, I don’t see how we can continue in the discussion, if you are not willing to see where I am coming from…. If I was unwilling to see where your coming from, then I would think that this discussion would come to an end….
Dark Knight wrote:It is like this.... There are two groups.. one has seen skyscraper.. the other has not... Someone from the group who have seen skyscraper goes to the town of the people who have not seen skyscraper... went he gets there he mentions skyscraper The leader of the town points and says "we have many skyscrapers", however he points to a one story house... clearly this group have no idea what skyscraper is really like....
OK, this time I must cry foul! This analogy is completely wrong. It relies on the belief that the divine only revels himself to a select few and I don’t believe that for a minute. The divine is always there for everyone to see, always. There is never a moment when the divine is not present and not perceivable by those who choose to see. I know you believe this as well, it is the foundation of the Christian faith.
Completely wrong to you…>>>> and this is where most people disagree with me… and discussions end… However I feel I must Stick to my Guns, so to speak.. I do not want to offend anyone, but I will speak my mind on this… as I usually do…

He it is: I do believe that the divine only revels himself to those he choices.
The divine is always there for everyone to see, always.
Yes he is always there, but not for everyone to see.
There is never a moment when the divine is not present and not perceivable by those who choose to see.

Yes he is always present, but can only be seen if he chooses…
I know you believe this as well, it is the foundation of the Christian faith.
You know?, actually you think you know…. While I use to believe it, I do not anymore… While it is the foundation of the Christian faith, according to religious people, it does not mean I have to believe in it to be a Christian. Loads of Christians will point to al sorts of things that you need to believe, or do to become a Christian, it does not make them right… And a number of Christians believe as I do…
So I know he is always there
You may know he is always there, but that does not mean others do..
Let me illustrate the concept with a personal experience. When we moved to Seattle for a couple years my wife saw Mount Rainer for the first time. For her it was a religious experience, she truly felt the power of the divine just by seeing that mountain. Me, all I saw was a big pimple looking chunk of rock. You see, she was born and raised in the mid-west and had never seen real mountains before. Me, I have partied in the shadows of the Swiss Alps. So when she saw purple mountains majesty I just saw a medium sized volcano with a white top.

You see, God is always there and always talking, but we can only hear that which we are capable of hearing, and for each it is different.
Well, I can see your wife had an experience and you did not. Question, does that mean your more primitive than she is? Of course it does not. Second question, did you decide not to have the same experience as your wife did? Of course you did not, you made no choice. If he is there to see, and you can choose to see him or not, then why didn’t you have the same experience, my didn’t you choose..????

Also referring back to Moses, it was God who picked Moses, Moses did not one day decide he was going to have the experience he did with God, It was God who decided.

We only hear what God wants us to hear.
You see, God is always there and always talking, but we can only hear that which we are capable of hearing, and for each it is different.
Well it is nice if you what to believe that, but he is not. He is only talking to those who he wants to talk to, and making them understand want he wants them to understand…..
And the way you see it is correct, for you. It is the way that God speaks to you and they way you were meant to understand. But each of us will receive our message in a different manner. What is important is not that we understand the message for others, but that we understand that they have their message and it is just as correct as our own.

And that is the way I see it…
If you do not understand, then how can we have a discussion? Since any discussion would get us no where….. which is actually where we are going....

Now let me say some things, again I don’t mean to offend anyone…but lets get back to this…>>>
So, when studying other religions, it is important to try and step away from your own and try and relate to the level of intellectual ability and the environment of the people of that religion. Then imagine how they would have described their view of the divine. If they can only describe the divine as the burning Sun, a Mountain, a burning bush, or even an old man with a flowing beard. It’s still a description of the same thing, just coloured by the culture that it came from.
I say again that it is not the same thing… If it was the same thing, then why does God have a problem with it?

Exo 20:3 `Thou hast no other gods before Me.

He tells them not to have other gods…. If these other gods are a description of the same divine then, why does he tell them not to have other gods.. you would think if this was the case he would want them to do that….??? But no he tells them not to do that…

Also, Moses destroys a gold calf… God is angry that the people made it, why? If they where describing God as a gold calf, then why does Moses have to destroy it….???

And if you study the bible it seems all the good leaders of Israel, go around and destroy the high places, places of worship to other gods… Why did they have to do this?..

In the old Testament times, there was a god people worshipped, and the people sacrificed there children to there god. Do you think that this is the same god as you see. Do you think that the real god wanted that? Or do you blame the people and say they where primitive…? or blame there environment?

There is a reason God warns against worshipping other gods… it is because they are not worshipping the divine.

And so I refer back to my skyscraper example.. many have not see God, and so they point, there is god… we have many gods… but they are mistaken…

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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

, but to me they are different….and it seems you can not see that…
I can see that they are different to you but I disagree with that assessment and therefore claim the ability to be able to compare the two. So the question is; are you saying I can not se that you find them different or are you saying I can not compare the two? I have no problem with seeing what your beliefs are, and I respect them, but I do not share them.
I see that you don’t see what I am saying… Actually it shows a lot more than that, God give Moses understanding… It is not about how primitive the person is, that has nothing to do with it… Moses lived for many years in Egypt, and then he left… When he left after killing someone, he did not go to a more advanced society. The Egyptians remember had the sun gods, and that is where he lived for many years….If you call them primitive then is he also not primitive?

How I would interpret such a thing, well if God give me understanding, then I would do as well as Moses….
Once again, I see what you are saying but do not agree with what you are saying.
I cry foul… While there is no need for you to do so, I don’t see how we can continue in the discussion, if you are not willing to see where I am coming from…. If I was unwilling to see where your coming from, then I would think that this discussion would come to an end….
Hmmmm, this worries me a bit. I see where you are coming from but I disagree with your conclusions. I interpreted your “can you see it now?” question to mean “do you agree with my statement”, and I did not, nor do I see a need for me to do so. If your goal is to convert me and convince me that your conclusions are correct and my are incorrect then there is little need for the continuation of our conversation.

My convictions are very strong and while they may change from time to time it is very doubtful I will ever believe the same as you do. I am sure that after seeing what I believe you will say the same thing. Our goal should not be to agree, it should be to explore. We are exploring each others beliefs not to convince them of our own but rather to have a better understanding of each other.
Completely wrong to you…>>>> and this is where most people disagree with me… and discussions end… However I feel I must Stick to my Guns, so to speak.. I do not want to offend anyone, but I will speak my mind on this… as I usually do…

He it is: I do believe that the divine only revels himself to those he choices.
Yes he is always there, but not for everyone to see.

Yes he is always present, but can only be seen if he chooses…

You know?, actually you think you know…. While I use to believe it, I do not anymore… While it is the foundation of the Christian faith, according to religious people, it does not mean I have to believe in it to be a Christian. Loads of Christians will point to al sorts of things that you need to believe, or do to become a Christian, it does not make them right… And a number of Christians believe as I do…
This is a complete surprise to me and why I am enjoying our conversations. I have learned something new. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was always taught that God reveals himself to everyone and but most choose not to see or hear. Some he reaches out and taps on the shoulder to say “Hey, pay attention, I’m talking here”, such as Moses. But we were always taught that he was constantly shouting out for everyone to hear.

So, learn something new everyday.
Well, I can see your wife had an experience and you did not. Question, does that mean your more primitive than she is? Of course it does not. Second question, did you decide not to have the same experience as your wife did? Of course you did not, you made no choice. If he is there to see, and you can choose to see him or not, then why didn’t you have the same experience, my didn’t you choose..????

Also referring back to Moses, it was God who picked Moses, Moses did not one day decide he was going to have the experience he did with God, It was God who decided.

We only hear what God wants us to hear.

Well it is nice if you what to believe that, but he is not. He is only talking to those who he wants to talk to, and making them understand want he wants them to understand…..
A point we will never agree on. It requires me to believe that God is selfish and only speaks to special people. Can’t do it. God speaks to everyone but only those who listen can hear.
If you do not understand, then how can we have a discussion? Since any discussion would get us no where….. which is actually where we are going....
Define understanding. I understand what you believe, I just don’t believe it myself. If you require that I believe the same as you in order to truly understand than by your definition there will never be any understanding. And our discussion is not going nowhere, it is expanding our knowledge of each other and ourselves. It is through this expansion that we are able to come to more informed conclusions within our own faith.
I say again that it is not the same thing… If it was the same thing, then why does God have a problem with it?

Exo 20:3 `Thou hast no other gods before Me.

He tells them not to have other gods…. If these other gods are a description of the same divine then, why does he tell them not to have other gods.. you would think if this was the case he would want them to do that….??? But no he tells them not to do that…

Also, Moses destroys a gold calf… God is angry that the people made it, why? If they where describing God as a gold calf, then why does Moses have to destroy it….???

And if you study the bible it seems all the good leaders of Israel, go around and destroy the high places, places of worship to other gods… Why did they have to do this?..

In the old Testament times, there was a god people worshipped, and the people sacrificed there children to there god. Do you think that this is the same god as you see. Do you think that the real god wanted that? Or do you blame the people and say they where primitive…? or blame there environment?

There is a reason God warns against worshipping other gods… it is because they are not worshipping the divine.

And so I refer back to my skyscraper example.. many have not see God, and so they point, there is god… we have many gods… but they are mistaken…
Well this comes from our difference in faith. Mine allows for a figurative meaning to the Bible and yours is very literal. Mankind has always viewed religion as a method of crowd control, just look at the Catholic Church. Putting down another persons religion and forcing them to bow down to your own is more in the realm of politics in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah, I know, that statement bought me a few years in the lake of fire.
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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

Hey DK,

Check out this thread, does it sound familiar?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/sh ... hp?t=34805
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Post by Dark Knight »

Hey Trey, yea that sounds familiar....I visit another forum for a short time, it was a Christian Universelist forum, and there was this long time member, who strange enough did not believe in Christian Universelism, it was strange, because he kept coming, even thou he was alone in his believe...

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We are never alone...
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Post by Dark Knight »

I can see that they are different to you but I disagree with that assessment and therefore claim the ability to be able to compare the two.
OK that is fine, we can agree to disagree…..
I have no problem with seeing what your beliefs are, and I respect them, but I do not share them.
Yes I should have no problem with that, it was a misunderstanding of what you where saying…

I see that you don’t see what I am saying… Actually it shows a lot more than that, God give Moses understanding… It is not about how primitive the person is, that has nothing to do with it… Moses lived for many years in Egypt, and then he left… When he left after killing someone, he did not go to a more advanced society. The Egyptians remember had the sun gods, and that is where he lived for many years….If you call them primitive then is he also not primitive? How I would interpret such a thing, well if God give me understanding, then I would do as well as Moses….
Once again, I see what you are saying but do not agree with what you are saying.
Well then we will have to disagree….
Hmmmm, this worries me a bit. I see where you are coming from but I disagree with your conclusions. I interpreted your “can you see it now?” question to mean “do you agree with my statement”, and I did not, nor do I see a need for me to do so. If your goal is to convert me and convince me that your conclusions are correct and my are incorrect then there is little need for the continuation of our conversation.
I use to think I hand to convert people to Christianity to save them, however I do not think like that anymore… Don’t worry be happy…. My goal should not be to try to convince you, I know that, sorry if it head that way, I sometimes get like that…
My convictions are very strong and while they may change from time to time it is very doubtful I will ever believe the same as you do. I am sure that after seeing what I believe you will say the same thing.
So are mine, that is why sometimes they come over strong… And I am “very doubtful that I will ever believe the same as you do.” However I believe one day you will believe as I do.
Our goal should not be to agree, it should be to explore. We are exploring each others beliefs not to convince them of our own but rather to have a better understanding of each other.
Are yes it is good to explore…..

Completely wrong to you…>>>> and this is where most people disagree with me… and discussions end… However I feel I must Stick to my Guns, so to speak.. I do not want to offend anyone, but I will speak my mind on this… as I usually do… He it is: I do believe that the divine only revels himself to those he choices. Yes he is always there, but not for everyone to see. Yes he is always present, but can only be seen if he chooses… You know?, actually you think you know…. While I use to believe it, I do not anymore… While it is the foundation of the Christian faith, according to religious people, it does not mean I have to believe in it to be a Christian. Loads of Christians will point to al sorts of things that you need to believe, or do to become a Christian, it does not make them right… And a number of Christians believe as I do…
This is a complete surprise to me and why I am enjoying our conversations. I have learned something new. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was always taught that God reveals himself to everyone and but most choose not to see or hear. Some he reaches out and taps on the shoulder to say “Hey, pay attention, I’m talking here”, such as Moses. But we were always taught that he was constantly shouting out for everyone to hear.

So, learn something new everyday.
It is always good to learn something new…

And I note you said... "Some he reaches out and taps on the shoulder to say “Hey, pay attention, I’m talking here”, such as Moses."

Are you not saying then that he makes sure certain people are listening?....
Well, I can see your wife had an experience and you did not. Question, does that mean your more primitive than she is? Of course it does not. Second question, did you decide not to have the same experience as your wife did? Of course you did not, you made no choice. If he is there to see, and you can choose to see him or not, then why didn’t you have the same experience, my didn’t you choose..???? Also referring back to Moses, it was God who picked Moses, Moses did not one day decide he was going to have the experience he did with God, It was God who decided. We only hear what God wants us to hear. Well it is nice if you what to believe that, but he is not. He is only talking to those who he wants to talk to, and making them understand want he wants them to understand…..

A point we will never agree on. It requires me to believe that God is selfish and only speaks to special people. Can’t do it. God speaks to everyone but only those who listen can hear.
Never is a long time buddy ….and I do believe we will agree one day…….. Actually it does not require the believe that God is selfish… I don’t know if you know this but, there are Christians who believe God is only going to save a certain group of people. The view is called…>>

Calvinism: This is the believe that God has predestined to save a certain group of people. these are called God’s elect. God’s sovereign will for His elect cannot be resisted or thwarted as His irresistible grace ensures that all of them will freely and willingly choose and accept Jesus Christ, at some point in their lives before they die. The non-elect cannot come to Christ because natural man is totally sinful and depraved. Salvation is entirely the work of God from start to finish. All believers (the elect) will go to heaven, but all unbelievers (the non-elect) will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (hell), where they will remain and be eternally tortured.
Some Calvinist Christians believe in annihilation instead of endless torture. From http://www.godoftheages.com/site/1351515/page/686563

From part ten of my mega opus

Clearly under this believe God is selfish…..

Now you know I don’t believe that….

God will one day be talking with everyone, in Heaven, when everyone is saved, and for the reason I do not view him as selfish… However, I do believe that God is only talking to certain people at this time. God create the ages for a certain reason, and during the ages God is only talking to certain people. It is part of his over all plan, of the ages.
If you do not understand, then how can we have a discussion? Since any discussion would get us no where….. which is actually where we are going....
Define understanding. I understand what you believe, I just don’t believe it myself. If you require that I believe the same as you in order to truly understand than by your definition there will never be any understanding. And our discussion is not going nowhere, it is expanding our knowledge of each other and ourselves. It is through this expansion that we are able to come to more informed conclusions within our own faith.
Well I do not require you to believe, that is not my view of understand….
There is a reason God warns against worshipping other gods… it is because they are not worshipping the divine. And so I refer back to my skyscraper example.. many have not see God, and so they point, there is god… we have many gods… but they are mistaken…
Well this comes from our difference in faith. Mine allows for a figurative meaning to the Bible and yours is very literal. Mankind has always viewed religion as a method of crowd control, just look at the Catholic Church. Putting down another persons religion and forcing them to bow down to your own is more in the realm of politics in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah, I know, that statement bought me a few years in the lake of fire.
Yes mine is a very literal view of the bible, and maybe you will one day take it more literal view too…

My research into creation, has lead me to believe it is true.. Also a number of places mention in the bible have been find… and they have even find evidence of a battle, that is in the bible…

not to mention chariot wheels being find in the sea…, evidence that an army did perish, where they the Egyptians chasing after the Jews…???

Anyway you can have your view, I can have mine…
Mankind has always viewed religion as a method of crowd control, just look at the Catholic Church.
Yes Mankind has view it that way, and a number of Christians have view it that way….
Putting down another persons religion and forcing them to bow down to your own is more in the realm of politics in my opinion.


You have a point there….

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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

I use to think I hand to convert people to Christianity to save them, however I do not think like that anymore… Don’t worry be happy…. My goal should not be to try to convince you, I know that, sorry if it head that way, I sometimes get like that…
No problems buddy, just didn’t want you banging your head against a brick wall which is what trying to convert me would be like.
However I believe one day you will believe as I do.
My friend, I predict that when we reach the hereafter we will both look around and go wow, didn’t see that one coming.
Are yes it is good to explore…..


I could tell you're an explorer.
It is always good to learn something new…
My goal in life.
And I note you said... "Some he reaches out and taps on the shoulder to say “Hey, pay attention, I’m talking here”, such as Moses."

Are you not saying then that he makes sure certain people are listening?....
Not sure I fully believe this but I will admit it is possible.
You have a point there….
That’s just the top of my head.
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Post by Dark Knight »

Trey of Diamonds wrote:
Dark Knight wrote:I use to think I hand to convert people to Christianity to save them, however I do not think like that anymore… Don’t worry be happy…. My goal should not be to try to convince you, I know that, sorry if it head that way, I sometimes get like that…
No problems buddy, just didn’t want you banging your head against a brick wall which is what trying to convert me would be like.
:wallbash:

Well there are alot better thinks to do than banging my head against a brick wall...... :drunks: :dancingbanana:
Dark Knight wrote:However I believe one day you will believe as I do.
My friend, I predict that when we reach the hereafter we will both look around and go wow, didn’t see that one coming.
Yes that's what you predict.....and you way be right I may not see something coming and go WOW....

However I believe I am right in this area, and especial in the area of all saved, your be the one going WOW......

However I will still be going WOW, at all the great things going on, and meeting all the people....
Are yes it is good to explore…..


I could tell you're an explorer.
What gave it a way?
It is always good to learn something new…
My goal in life.
One of my many goals in life.....
Dark Knight wrote:And I note you said... "Some he reaches out and taps on the shoulder to say “Hey, pay attention, I’m talking here”, such as Moses."

Are you not saying then that he makes sure certain people are listening?....
Not sure I fully believe this but I will admit it is possible.
Well, I believe that certain people where chosen by God for certain roles in the ages..... Therefore Moses was picked, and so God made sure he was listerning......

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Trey of Diamonds
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Post by Trey of Diamonds »

Dark Knight wrote: :wallbash:

Well there are alot better thinks to do than banging my head against a brick wall...... :drunks: :dancingbanana:
Is this an invitation? :drunks: I am so there!

I plan to hit the Comic Book conventions pretty heavy next year to promote my comic which is hopefully due out next summer. I will let you know which ones and if there is one close to you I'll let you buy me a beer. :wink:
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http://www.comicspace.com/trey/

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Dark Knight
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Post by Dark Knight »

Trey of Diamonds wrote:
Dark Knight wrote: :wallbash:

Well there are alot better thinks to do than banging my head against a brick wall...... :drunks: :dancingbanana:
Is this an invitation? :drunks: I am so there!
Yes......

Now to find my tower... he is a secret map....however it is not much of a secret, most monsters and bad guys can easily find it...... :D
I plan to hit the Comic Book conventions pretty heavy next year to promote my comic which is hopefully due out next summer. I will let you know which ones and if there is one close to you I'll let you buy me a beer.
Sounds good.........

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