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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:29 am
by aldan
I had said that I don't really care either way about gay marriage. However, I do have a caveat to that statement...

I feel that the tax reductions that are due to married people should not be available to ANY married people, gay or straight, that have no children. If they DO have children, then I feel that they should definitely have those reductions. Being a parent is tough. It costs a lot of money and is a lot of responsibility without having much in the way of physical rewards for it. Even with the tax reductions, it still doesn't come anywhere near making up for the money that needs to be spent on each child.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:41 am
by aldan
Personally, I feel that to not try to achieve the seemingly impossible will mean that the "impossible" will never be achieved.

Flying for humans used to be thought to be impossible. Travel into space? Impossible! I feel that for those who wish to try to achieve universal, or at least global, peace, well, I doubt it'll work, but more power to them to try. However, I feel very strongly that even if you believe that your car will never have a flat tire, you should still equip your car with a spare tire as well as a jack. Just the same, we need to avoid abolishing things that keep us safe. We also need to avoid starting to say "Well, we'll never achieve peace if we fight!"... Take a look at the time period around World War One. "Peace in our time" ended up causing more war than would otherwise have probably happened...

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:21 am
by Havoc
".... and I want to take that pain, that bitterness away from her. To make her feel happy again, so she won't have to cry, and she won't have to miss her (deceased) friends. I know this is impossible, but I'm going to try anyway...."
Anonymous letter..

Striving for a goal that can't be obtained, or at least not in your own lifetime can be a beautiful thing. For one thing, people who are striving for world peace now, are in fact stopping wars this very minute and negotiating peace-treaties. Peace on Earth might never happen, and if it does it will certainly not be in any of our lifespan. But at least we can minimize the amount, by striving for the total.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:24 am
by Anthentar
Most simply put, when you look at the causes and origins of conflict in every way, shape and form, you realize that the only way to prevent war is to turn everyone into mindless zombies that don't have opinions or independent thoughts. Anyway, back onto topic... what makes someone gay?

Well, I don't know. I've never looked at any scientific data but know that, at least in every case I've ever witnessed or heard about, these people were born that way, not made that way by choice or the 'corruptive touch' of homosexuals. This has led me to believe that this likely comes from the same place that conflict does. Our world is not pefect. We are not perfect. This is another one of those imperfections that just can't be resolved as long as this world exists. In other words, homosexuals have always been here and will always be here so long as this world lasts. Do I believe that it was actually meant to happen? No I do not, but in the same sense as conflict, I live with it because there's nothing that can be done to stop it.

With this in mind, we might as well just let them marry. It really doesn't make sense otherwise. As to the religious aspect of it, well I don't see any reason that religious figures should be forced in any way, shape or form to perform these marriages... but civil marriages could serve the purpose nicely

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:36 am
by Jade
Anthentar wrote:I've never looked at any scientific data but know that, at least in every case I've ever witnessed or heard about, these people were born that way, not made that way by choice or the 'corruptive touch' of homosexuals.

You believe homosexuality is a natural occurence, that they are born that way. Ok.

Anthentar wrote:Do I believe that it was actually meant to happen? No I do not, but in the same sense as conflict, I live with it because there's nothing that can be done to stop it.

How is something that is a completely natural occurence not "meant" to happen?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:42 pm
by Anthentar
I believe that this world was God's first attempt at creation, and so he did what he believed would work the best. When this world ends, he will take the lessons learned and build a better world.

Do you believe that God meant for us to be at odds with one another... to tear his kingdom apart with our conflicts? I do not. Homosexuality is the same thing, in my view. He did not mean for people to become homosexuals, but the imperfections in creation made some people like that. I suppose you could say it is natural, but unintended and unforseen from the outset

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:46 pm
by Jade
Anthentar wrote:Do you believe that God meant for us to be at odds with one another... to tear his kingdom apart with our conflicts? I do not. Homosexuality is the same thing, in my view. He did not mean for people to become homosexuals, but the imperfections in creation made some people like that. I suppose you could say it is natural, but unintended and unforseen from the outset

I believe that if God didn't want us to be at odds with each other he wouldn't have created us with the tendency to do so.

Would you say that God knows all past, present, and future events, that He is omniscient, Anthentar?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:47 pm
by aldan
Ahhh... the imperfect god idea...

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:49 pm
by Neurolanis
Anthentar:

I said realistic, yet challenging. For instance... the abolition of armed conflict... it's not possible, so why bother. On the other hand, the colonization of Mars, or the development of better recycling technologies are not only possible, but inevitable. Realistic, yet challenging goals


OK, I think I understand you now. But I think we need to believe in ourselves and in each other. In my opinion, this belief is a very important part for keeping things somewhat positive and balanced. Can people be civil and kind? Of course, so global peace isn't impossible. Nothing could ever be perfect and it's not about perfection in my mind, it's about reaching for greater potential. Every child is born natural and innocent to this world. It's the hatefulness of others that makes him lose his way. Society can say tough luck and reject him, or society can be compassionate and support him.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:50 pm
by Anthentar
Be compassionate to the children all you want, but they are as they were meant to be in the end. You can raise them as you see fit (if you're in a position to do so) but, in the same sense that you can't break someone of being gay, you can't break someone of their beliefs and morals, which they will discover on their own in the end. No one can dictate who a person will become unless they keep them in a rubber room with no contact with the outisde world.

For example: my parents had a great hand in raising me. They taught me right from wrong and what to do if bad situations arise. They taught me not to judge people by the prejustices that surround them and all of those good things, but no matter what they or anyone else taught me, my system of morals, my beliefs and especially my belief that it is the justification that defines right or wrong, not the act, came from myself.

Now, as to God and my belief in him. I believe that he knows what fate has in store for this world... because he devised it himself. I believe that God is a living entity who is trying to create something of incredible beauty and wonder. And I believe that God knows that his first attempt at creation didn't go the way he would have liked it to. He can't forsee every action that is committed, and therefore he did what he thought would be best for his creation. He created in this way because he thought it might be perfect. It was not, and now he plans to learn from his own experiences and those of his people to create a new and better world after he finally destroys this one. Will that world be perfect? Maybe. Maybe, maybe not. But if not, it will most certainly be another good lesson and a step towards a perfect creation

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:48 pm
by Neurolanis
In this world (modern society) I see a non-ending struggle of truth and untruth. Truth is who you are underneath, how you really feel. Untruth is how you act on the surface, lose or change yourself into -- but still, the true self is always under it, trying to get out. If people are true then I couldn't conplain, but I see mass, mass bull everywhere. People don't know what's true or isn't anymore, it seems. What keeps me sane and what gets me out of bed every morning is the truth I feel and know. What keeps me compassionate is the truth i sense behind the surface of people I know. What makes me care about society is the truth I see behind all the structure and commercialism.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, to me it's all about facing and exposing the bull, embracing and following, and fighting for, the truth. "The truth shall set us free". In truth, we all want love and peace, therefore I'm compelled towards those things, and away from things that threaten or restrain those things. I don't care if these reasons are "pratical" or whatever. I stand for the inner truth, always. It's all I really understand in this mess. (The rest is all illusion anway.)

I guess, personally, it's about listening to the inner voice and not giving up for what seems "pratical".

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:18 pm
by Anthentar
I know a guy kinda like you, Neuro. He's pretty smart in his own right and a really nice guy... but he just never seemed capable of grasping what was actually going on in the world. I guess some people just never can understand it and look at in a way that everything just makes sense. When I look at the world, I see something that isn't perfect, but still works... when he looked at the world, he saw a horrific failure in so many ways. I don't know why, but he was convinced that he could help the world without any money. I told him that he'd at least need money to pay for plane tickets and fuel for food drops and the like, but he was very adament about his belief that people would open up their hearts and let him fly for free or give him free fuel and whatnot... never really understood him, and I never really will, but I suppose that's life