DK Talks {religion and other stuff}

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DK Talks {religion and other stuff}

Post by Dark Knight »

What is DK talks all about?

Good question :?:

1 Is it another Bible {religion} topic?

yes I will discuss Bible stuff. But other stuff maybe talked about.

2 why another bible topic?

well some stuff does not fit in to the other two topics.

I also what to address questions, with out go off topic in the creation topic.....

3 How many of these religion topics?

This will be the last one, it is not my plan to full the broad with religion, and if I did so, Bmat would surely put a stop to it.

4 how many people are really interested?

Well if you look at the views, on the other two topics there is interest out there.

5 ?

Before you say it I will explain, you did not have to read this, you don't even have to click..... on it....if your not interested you can stay away.....>>>>

6 what is the first topic....?

A question from Ariel

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Post by Dark Knight »

Ariel: Why let the conflict go on for so long? With all the suffering in the world, why allow it to such depths?
First some back ground stuff:

This post is from the creation topic.

What is the conflict....>>>> The conflict is between Angels and Demons....

Now some of you may think I have gone of the deep end....{and some of you may think I have already}

Many people believe in the Bible and it is clear, there is an on going conflict.

The Demons I'm refering to are fallen Angels.

The conflict has been going on since a third of the angels decided to follow Satan

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Post by Dark Knight »

There are a number of things that I could talk about here in relation to this question,

1 how long has it been going on?

2 time in relation to Enternity

3 suffering

lets look at suffering...>>> one could ask "why does God allow suffering"

Lets look at it this way, why did God create humans if he knew they where going to suffer?

Would a mother have a baby if she knew it was going to die, young?

He knew we where going to suffer, but he created us, because he loves us. He knew that alot of us would love him.

Now lets look at free will:

"When God created mankind, He too had a choice. If He created us as beings that were pre-programmed to follow and serve Him, there could be no love. But, if He created us with the capacity of choice, the capacity to love and serve Him, and the capacity not to do so, then there is the possibility of relationship: the possibility of real love. As a personal being with the capability of creating us in the first place, it makes sense that He would want to create us as personal beings with the capability of choice (free will) and, thus, the capability of love. But where there is choice and the capability of love, there is also the capability to choose wrong and to do great evil."

from http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/74

So lets look more at this article:

Edit: This is wrong, there is no such thing as free will, however God does want us to love him, and to know Good and Evil.

Also in the end everyone will love God....
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dark Knight »

Why Does God Allow Evil?
by Dr. Mark Eastman

In my experience, it is the most commonly asked question by honest skeptics: "If God is real, if God is personal, if God loves us, why does God allow evil?" A proper understanding of this issue not only provides great insight into the nature of God, it ties together a comprehensive understanding to some of life's ultimate questions: the answers to my origin, meaning, morality and destiny!

Email from A Skeptic

The question of evil was brought into clearer focus in an email I recently received from a skeptic:

The Christian worldview is an impractical, even phony, view of the Cosmos because it embraces a God who is either incapable of stopping evil and suffering, and he is therefore not omnipotent, or is unwilling to do so and therefore a devil!
The skeptic's point is well taken because the Bible states that one of God's attributes is love. "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (I John 4:8 ) In the book of Romans, Paul the Apostle stated that the invisible attributes of God "are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead."1

However, what the skeptic is saying, in effect, is this: "If your God is love, I see no evidence of that attribute in creation. All the death, disease, pain and suffering seems to be out of place if this God of yours is love. Surely an all-powerful God could, and a loving God would, eliminate all evil. Since evil exists, then no such God exists."

To answer this objection we need to examine some principles of logic, the nature of God, the nature of man, the nature of love and the nature of evil.

Evil and Moral Law

When someone states that they do not believe in God because a good God would not allow evil, they make a fatal error in logic. First, the recognition of evil is the recognition that certain actions are "right" and certain actions are "wrong." But how do we determine what actions are morally right and morally wrong? We discern this on the basis of a moral law: a universal sense that certain states of affairs are right and others are wrong. Even most atheists will admit that certain actions are universally wrong and, conversely, universally right.

For example, no one could seriously argue with the statement that it is better to love a child than to torture it. The point is that there is an innate, universal sense of right and wrong within all of us. What is the basis of this moral sense? Some would argue that it is based on cultural customs or traditions. But can this be so?

The famous atheist Bertrand Russell once debated a Christian who asked him if he believed in right and wrong. Russell replied "of course." Then he asked him how he determined what is right and wrong. Russell replied that he determined right and wrong on the basis of his feelings. His opponent replied, "Well, in some cultures they feel it is okay to eat you, and in others they don't. Which do you prefer." The point is that social customs, attitudes, traditions or feelings cannot determine a universal sense of right and wrong.

A universal sense of moral right and wrong can only come from a source outside of ourselves: a transcendent source, a moral Lawgiver. So the recognition of moral law is by default the recognition of a moral Lawgiver. To argue that the existence of evil proves that there is no God is equivalent to stating that the existence of moral law proves that there is no Lawgiver! It's like declaring that the Chrysler automobile that I drive proves without a doubt that there is no Chrysler Motor Company!

Atheists often present the problem of evil to theists as if it is a fatal argument for the existence of God. Nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, it is an absolutely unsolvable problem for the atheist. How does the atheist explain evil-the sense of moral right and wrong-in the absence of a moral Lawgiver? They can't! If there is no moral Lawgiver, then there is no way to explain the sense of moral wrong and moral right we all possess. C.S. Lewis said that evil is God's megaphone to a non-believing world. Evil speaks of moral law. Moral law demands a moral Lawgiver, and it is He that we call God!

Evil Often Begets Good

A second principle of logic we need to consider is the fact that an apparently evil state of affairs will often bring about an even better state of affairs. The problem is that we often do not recognize this fact until we have the advantage of hindsight. In my own field of medicine I see this on a daily basis: the process of childbirth, surgical intervention, and many medical therapies often present physical pain (an evil state of affairs according to non-theists), and yet they bring about an even better state of affairs: improved health. Physical pain is often highly beneficial as well. When a child touches a hot stove, the nervous system sends a neurological signal to the brain which is perceived as pain (a form of evil). Yet without that sense of pain, an even worse state of affairs would arise: the destruction of the limb.

The skeptic might object that while this provides a partial answer to the problem of evil, it does not address some of the most disturbing forms of evil: war, murder, rape, incest and the senseless death of the innocent.

God, Freedom, and Evil

The problem of human evil is rooted in the nature of God and the nature of love and the nature of mankind. I argued in last month's Personal UPDATE that God is a personal being because an impersonal force is an insufficient agent to create personal beings.2 What is the greatest passion of personal beings? I would argue that, above all else, personal beings desire personal relationships with other personal beings. So it makes sense that God, as a personal being, would desire to create us in such a way that He could have a meaningful, personal, and loving relationship with us. But this has a severe price.

Let us consider the nature of love and its consequences. I cannot experience love from you unless you have the capacity to do otherwise. If you have the capacity to not love me, and you choose instead to love me, then that choice has validity. It has meaning. You cannot have a love relationship with a computer. It is pre-programmed to serve you. Love requires choice: unencumbered choice. And that's where the problem lies.

When God created mankind, He too had a choice. If He created us as beings that were pre-programmed to follow and serve Him, there could be no love. But, if He created us with the capacity of choice, the capacity to love and serve Him, and the capacity not to do so, then there is the possibility of relationship: the possibility of real love. As a personal being with the capability of creating us in the first place, it makes sense that He would want to create us as personal beings with the capability of choice (free will) and, thus, the capability of love. But where there is choice and the capability of love, there is also the capability to choose wrong and to do great evil.

But the skeptic says, "why did God do this when he knew in advance that the result of free will would be so disastrous? Did this God of love not care that war, murder, rape and so much senseless violence would be the result of his choice to give us free will?" A real life illustration will help us to understand.

The Love of a Mother

During my 15 years as a physician I have seen an enormous amount of physical suffering. During that time I have had five children in my practice die by disease and injury. All of these children came from Christian families. Several months after the death of one of these children, the child's mother was in my office and was very distraught over her loss. She asked me, "Why did God allow this? I love God. Why did this happen?"

What could I say in this situation? Rather than providing an answer I asked her this question. "You have three children. One of them has died. If you could go back to the time before you had any children, with the knowledge that one of them would die this horrible death, would you have children again?"

After a long pause, with many tears in her eyes and a broken heart she said, "Oh yes. Oh yes. yes I would. Because, you see, the love and the joy and the happiness I have received from my children far outweighs the pain, suffering and misery I experienced from the loss of that one child. Oh yes. Oh yes. I would have children again."

In this tragic story we see an incredible insight as to why God allows evil to exist. As discussed earlier, a loving God can allow an evil state of affairs to exist if, in allowing it to occur, it brings about an even better state of affairs. For this woman, the loss of her child was an unequalled and tragic evil. But, with the advantage of hindsight, she said she would do it all again because the love she received as a result of being a mother outweighed the evil state of affairs in the death of her child.

In the hypothetical scenario I presented to this woman, with the advantage of hindsight (foreknowledge in this case) she was in a position comparable to God's before He created humankind. Because He is outside time and knows all things, He knew that there would be tremendous pain and suffering as a result of His decision to create a people with the capacity of choice and, consequently, the capacity to sin (moral evil).

But God, like this mother, knew that the love He and his human creatures would experience would outweigh the pain and suffering that would result from His decision to create us as He did. But the consequences of God's decision were not unforeseen. They were foreknown!

The Incredible Answer

The skeptic that emailed me stated, in effect, that if an all-powerful God did not eliminate evil, then He was a devil! The implication is that the removal of all evil would permit a better, more loving world. A truly loving God, the skeptics assert, would have desired and created such a world because it is clearly superior to the one we have. Any God that did not follow this logic was not a God of love, but an evil tyrant.

As we have seen, this logic crumbles under its own weight. The existence of evil is the "side effect" of creating a world with love. But as we have seen, there are compelling arguments that a world possessing both evil and love is superior to a world where neither is possible. For God to eliminate evil, He would have to eliminate our capacity of choice and thus our capacity to do both evil and good. And such a world is inferior to the one we have: one where love is possible, despite its inherent evil. What kind of God would do this? Only one kind. A God of love.

Why does a God of love allow evil? Because He is a God of LOVE.

So Great a Salvation

So, how practical is Christianity? The Bible presents an infinite Creator with the very attributes we would expect when we examine the things that are made. And God, as a personal Being, in order that He might have a love relationship with us, gave us the capacity of choice. In order that we might have a practical revelation of His love, His wisdom, His power, His glory, He became one of us in the person of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

In order that we might not suffer the penalty of our evil choices (sin), He, like a loving father, paid the penalty for our sins. He allowed his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to be murdered on a Roman cross (arguably the most evil act in the history of the universe, if He is indeed God's Son). But this act of great evil gave rise to an even better state of affairs, and the greatest act of love in the universe: paying the penalty for the wrong choices we make, which were the result of the way He created us in the first place! In the cross of Christ He has provided a full pardon from the consequences of the evil in our lives. Consequently, we cannot look to God and declare that He is unfair. Far from being a devil, in this examination of the problem of evil, God becomes the hero of the plot and the solution to the problem of evil. And it all hinges on LOVE. Indeed, God is love.3 What must we do to receive this pardon?

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
* * *

from http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/74

Edit: this is an article, in it contains an error...

Again, there is no such thing as free will, more on this much later.....

In the end all will be saved, that is the great LOVE....

More on this later on.....
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dark Knight »

Just in case anyone is wondering, I will not always post whole articles.....

I post the article because it is, for me difficult to answer.

I have not been a christian all that long so I go in search of answers....>>>>

So let us continue with this look at suffering...>>>

So lets take so bits from

"Why does God allow innocent people to suffer?"

We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.


"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25).

"Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:20).

We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.

There is really no such thing as the "innocent" suffering.

Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.

This "bondage of corruption," with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).

And this He did for us! "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

Full article at: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

.........

DK..>>>

Edit: First of there is no "age of conscious choice",

This is garbage, it means if I kill a baby, I am making sure it gets to Heaven.

Do they believe, NO....

Notice the write only thinks "possibly also assures", what Evil this is, to think it is only possibly, that babys are SAVED....

Will they get to know the Saviour....>>> YES.....>>>>will they be saved.....>>>>YES

He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior.

Yes, if you Believe, you can be saved, now....

But notice: "Christ died for our sins", Everyones SINS or SIN....

All will be saved in the end...

More later.....
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dark Knight »

Now this is my view, but as to do with babies and children before a certain age I say they go to heaven, if they die before a certain age, Pastor Joe also says this on his tapes at http://www.ccphilly.org.

Now I'm not sure of the passages that back that up I would have to go have a look....>>>>

Edit: WHAT RUBBISH IS THIS?

YES they will get to heaven, but not because they died before a certain age.......

There is NOT anything to back up a cut of point.....that once over you are going to the underworld...
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dark Knight »

But you may ask about Salvation before Jesus Christ...>>>

There is a group which are known as Old Testament saints....>>>>

These people where saved before Jesus Christ died on the cross..>>>

How were the Old Testament saints saved?

The OT saints were saved the same way the New Testament saints were/are saved, by faith.

For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. 8"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" (Rom. 4:3-8 ).

As you can see, the Bible tells us that Abraham was justified by faith (see Rom. 5:1 and Eph. 2:8-9). That is, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, v. 4 above. They were saved by faith in the Messiah in whom they were trusting. Only, for them it was a trust in the future Messiah. They knew He was coming as had been prophesied .
Also, the Holy Spirit was there in the OT times the same as the NT times. Consider Psalm 51:11, "Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me."
God did not change how He saved people in the New Testament. It has always been by faith. In the case of the OT people, they looked ahead in time to the Messiah. We look back to Him and see the cross.

from http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm

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Post by Dark Knight »

One final article on suffering:

Why is there evil and suffering in the world?


The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28 ). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.

Conclusion

Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

from http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm

Edit: some notes:

It says:

bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life.

DK: So that we WILL have eternal life

It says:

God is not stopping people from exercising their free will.

DK: people don’t have free will….

It says:

Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.

DK: That is not a reason, people don’t have free will….{more on this later}

IT says:

but God used that cross as the means to save the world.

DK: Yes that is it, to save the world…..the good news….
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MrB »

I find it difficult to believe that an earthquake in the Indian ocean that results in a tsunami that kills in excess of 200,000 people is a direct result of human sin ! or indeed, any natural disaster.

In fact the study of Plate Tectonics (sp?) I believe deals with the study of earthquakes, volcanoes and such, generally regarded as natural disasters which are proven by scientific means... of course I could be wrong ?
You can't dangle the bogus carrot of possible reconciliation in front of my face whilst riding some other donkey.

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Post by aldan »

I'd say that if it is something called for by a current prophet and then results right afterward, then it'd be something that was done (like in the OT) to punish sinners. However, I haven't seen/heard a modern prophet do anything of the sort, have you??

BTW, you spelled it correctly.
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and to appear stupid than
to open it and remove all doubt."
---Mark Twain

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Post by Dark Knight »

Natural disasters happen because sin is in the world....

Now I know about Plate Tectonics

and I know the plates move, causing earthquakes.

However it was not always this way....>>>

God do not create it this way....>>>

In the begining there where no earthquakes...>>>

"God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28 ). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation."

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake;

However I'm not talking about punishing sinners, in the bible there are times when God has directly punish sinners.

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Post by Dark Knight »

If God knew people would sin
why did He make them?
{Extract}

When parents have children they know that their kids will eventually act in sinful and even harmful ways. Yet, that doesn't stop them from having children. Why? First of all, it is worth the risk of their rebellion to bring them into the world. Second, the nature of love is to give and by having children the parents can better express their love. Third, just because the children will sin and rebel doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. Fourth, children have their own wills and can freely choose to rebel. Knowing this parents all over the world still have children.
more at http://www.carm.org/questions/people_sin.htm

Edit: There is no free will, it is in mans nature to rebel, it is the problem of sin, and therefore you don't have free will not to rebel.....more later...
Last edited by Dark Knight on Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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